Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective. • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#111

Post by sambe » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 4:48 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #88

jeromec wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage. Not true. That's why we have federal minimum wage laws. If the wait staff are actually employed and not acting as independent contractors, then they are paid the minimum wage for their state. (Although I will grant that this being a living wage is definitely arguable.) Edit: Correction - although not California (my state), apparently some sta…

Not true. Waiters have a different minimum wage: http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage? Answer: According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer mus…

So, although waiting tables is - predictably - not a great job, nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making 7.25/h as you would expect from federal minimum wage? And contrary to what most people attempt to convince me?

Coming from a country with a culture of smaller tips and significantly less social pressure to give them, I usually say that I should not be forced to make up for the employer's false advertising when receiving only mediocre service. This now seems correct - not tipping wi make the employer pay the remainder, not force the waitstaff on to the streets. Right?

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#112

Post by bloggergirl » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 4:53 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #94

patio11 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IAmerican tipping culture: there is a near-involiate presumption that wait staff gets tipped N% of the order. Customary practice recently is N is 20. Theoretically, tips are tied to service received. In practice, variation from societal norms is vanishingly rare in polite company. Waiters in higher priced restaurants do make better tips as a consequence of this. That might matter if the culture were designed. It was…

Side note - in California 18.5% is the customary practice for tips, though, to make it easy, you can round up to 20%. No service person will complain. If you get lackluster service, you can point it out with a 15% tip. Poor service gets a 10% tip, and, will make it clear you are unhappy. After 15 years of doing this (I'm from Canada, where tips aren't as proscribed, though they are still expected) I find it awkward a…

I'm in Canada, where tipping is just as expected as it is in the US. However, here it seems that 15% is standard for good service; 10% for fair service or a buffet/brunch meal (where the server was less-involved); and 20% or more for fantastic service. I had no idea California was so high.

Servers in all proper US/Canadian restaurants have to "tip out", which means paying a percentage of what should have been their tip on any table to support staff (e.g., bartender, host, kitchen). A server can tip out as much as 5% of the pre-tax bill --- or 1/3 of the expected standard tip --- which means that if you leave them no tip, they actually have to pay to serve you.

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#113

Post by kayhi » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 4:58 PM UTC

Perhaps the owner could price in lower tips for those that wait on groupon tables. Heck, you could even spin it a bit "at the end of today we will draw a groupon voucher and the waiter gets 50 dollars that served them"

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#114

Post by presto8 » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:02 PM UTC

noodle wrote: post #61

bdhe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is they tip on the Groupon price, not the full price, and are thus tipping something like 40% of what they should be. I am not intimately familiar with the tipping culture (at least in the US), but here are some genuine questions: Is there an inherent reason you tip on the full price? Is it a tax? If tipping is to support staff wages does that mean waiters who serve fancier higher priced food items are en…

this is something that probably isn't clear to people who don't live in the US -- wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage. they rely on tips as their primary source of income, and tips are usually shared with a bartender/busboy. if a restaurant runs a groupon and all grouponers tip on the post-coupon rate, the wait staff will be taking a rather large pay cut for the length of time t…

wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage.

The rules for the U.S. vary from state to state. In Oregon, where I live, wait staff make minimum wage ($8.50 per hour) and tips are added on top of that.

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#115

Post by icebraining » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:04 PM UTC

hnal943 wrote: post #96

lucisferre wrote: post #83

I wasn't aware tipping was all that common in the UK but here in Canada I would be wary of using Groupon for that exact reason. Personally I find tipping to be a nearly meaningless exercise (nearly because occasionally great service deserves a bit extra). Because I live in a country where we are expected to tip, restaurant owners do (and are allowed to with lower minimum wages) expect to be able to underpay their sta…

I'm tired of being responsible for someone elses paycheck. What's the alternative? Do you think the total cost of the night out would go down if the waitstaff was paid more? You're going to be paying their salary one way or the other, it's better that you get some input on their performance I think.

But if there's no culture of tipping and employers actually have to pay a fixed salary, situations like these wouldn't happen, since the waiters wouldn't be affected by coupons.

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#116

Post by jasonwocky » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:09 PM UTC

zheng wrote: post #82

noodle wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is something that probably isn't clear to people who don't live in the US -- wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage. they rely on tips as their primary source of income, and tips are usually shared with a bartender/busboy. if a restaurant runs a groupon and all grouponers tip on the post-coupon rate, the wait staff will be taking a rather large pay cut for the length of time t…

All restaurants are required by law to pay at least minimum wage if the employee doesn't make at least said wage in tips.

Waiters and waitresses typically make more than minimum wage, once tips are taken into account. A cut in tips due to Groupons yields an effective cut in salary. Minimum wage is just the floor.

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#117

Post by jasonwocky » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:12 PM UTC

sambe wrote: post #111

illumin8 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Waiters have a different minimum wage: http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage? Answer: According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer mus…

So, although waiting tables is - predictably - not a great job, nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making 7.25/h as you would expect from federal minimum wage? And contrary to what most people attempt to convince me? Coming from a country with a culture of smaller tips and significantly less social pressure to give them, I usually say that I should not be forced to make up for the employer's false advertising whe…

Nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making more than 7.25/h. If "not tipping" suddenly became endemic, I imagine plenty of waitstaff would be forced "onto the streets".

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#118

Post by thenomad » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:15 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #65

contactdick wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, in the internet age I was hoping searching would become more efficient so that 'find good restaurant in xxx' was a sensible thing to type into a search box. Currently there's too much noise so places like yelp are a much better option. Interestingly Yelp hasn't taken off here yet.

To me sites like Yelp and Urban Spoon have too much signal to noise ratio as well. I readily admit I am a food snob. And not the tasteless, this place is expensive so I have to be seen here type. I am very critical of food. I have a culinary degree and I have a refined pallet when it comes to food. I eat at hole in the wall joints as well as 5 star restaurants and the only thing I care about and judge a restaurant by…

Oddly Tripadvisor is much, much more reliable, at least for me. Where I live (Edinburgh, Scotland) the top 10 or so restaurants listed are indeed, uniformly, excellent quality - and all the Michelin starred places in the city are in the top 20.

True, the Michelin places don't come right at the top, but I'd defend most of the places that do come higher up as offering as good a dining experience considering price and variable taste. Sometimes (often) you're just not in the mood for a £200 tasting menu.

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#119

Post by thenomad » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:17 PM UTC

vaoinwie wrote: post #76

i think you're missing that the entire point of "tapas" restaurants is to rip you off in the first place. "how can we get someone to pay for their entire meal as appetizers?" some MBA student got a good grade for that one

If you're getting ripped off, you're going to a bad tapas restaurant.

Speaking from experience, a meal at a good, appropriately-priced tapas place should cost the same or slightly less than a meal at a regular three-course restaurant, and should offer what seems like an endless stream of food!

Re: Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.

#120

Post by r00fus » Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 5:22 PM UTC

contactdick wrote: post #86

padmanabhan01 wrote: post #81

Restaurants should either not go for Groupon. If they do, they have no business despising Groupon customers. Doing that makes no sense. It is they who decided to go for it in the first place.

Absolutely. But I think there is a disconnect raganwald points out between the owners / managers who had the idea of going to groupon and the staff who feel it's effects.

Ultimately, Groupon needs to understand this and work this into their sales script/recipe so new restaurants/customers can prepare for the Groupon event.

However, they may be too busy preparing for IPO so the investors "get paid".