Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely • Hacker News Board

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#111

Post by zepto » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #83

gnrlst wrote: post #19

The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. It's the main reason I haven't bought, and won't buy, any BTC (regardless of the fact I think the tech is completely subpar). Having said that, there's plenty of really great communities around crypto that shouldn't be pooled together along with Bitcoin. Nano, for example, is probably the most hated altcoin by Bitcoin maximalists (probably because they feel threa…

No coiners are pretty damn toxic. I have friends that will clutch pearls over Bitcoin's energy usage (strange how they've consistently hated BTC since well before that became a talking point), yet will happily take 5 international vacations a year and have the carbon footprint of a medium sized town. Faux righteous indignation is one of the most toxic takes around.

No-coiners are a function of Bitcoin just as much as HODLers are.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#112

Post by dastx » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #98

dastx wrote: post #84

Bitcoin isn't claiming that it takes corruption out of the human psyche. Corrupt people stay corrupt. All bitcoin does is take unfounded trust away from individual organisations and governments, and instead puts that trust in maths and the collective. It never claimed that it will combat corruption, and likely never will. NFTs are definitely switching me off from cryptocurrencies as I find the use of it ridiculous. S…

> take unfounded trust away from individual organisations and governments, and instead puts that trust in maths and the collective If by "collective" you mean a tiny portion of the community that are core developers, megaminers, megapools, exchanges and whales, uhh, then sure, but that doesn't seem much different than fiat. There is still an elite minority in control.

Sure, but not everyone can foresee everything. Email was meant to be a decentralised, self-hosted service, yet here we are, gmail, outlook have the majority of users.

In addition to that, most of those megaminers, and megapools, can't do much without working with a large chunk of other miners. Without it, the worse they can do is not fulfill individual transactions (which other miners can continue to accept).

Just because a minority is hoarding bitcoin, does not make bitcoin's core issue invalid, that is, don't trust financial institutions or governments.

Bitcoin never claimed to solve the issues that are at the core of monetary systems (greed, corruption etc). It solves the issue of trust. I don't have to trust a financial institutions or government to tell me how much money I own. Nor is there a government or bank that can freeze my account because I've been naughty (or, in certain cases, because the government deems you naughty because of $ideology). That's what bitcoin solves. Not the issues that are core to monetary systems. Issues that mostly come from human psyche.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#113

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #91

matheusmoreira wrote: post #14

> Have I been salty? Definitely. There's no point in denying that. I could've purchased a home had I been in a coma until now. That about sums it all up. I too watched the rise of bitcoin and was too lazy to mine some on my own computer. I have screenshots of people buying pizza for like 20 BTC. All we had to do was buy some. We can still do it. > If I'd have deserved it is something else. Does it matter if you "dese…

> All we had to do was buy some. We can still do it. So you look at the four orders of magnitude that separate the famous "dude overpaying for pizza with Bitcoins" from the current price. And you apparently feel so strongly you leave out the argument for why that is relevant to encouraging others on HN to make a current investment in Bitcoin. Are you seriously implying that a Bitcoin will be worth $500,000,000 over t…

> Are you seriously implying that a Bitcoin will be worth $500,000,000 over the next decade?

Why wouldn't it? Is there anything that would put a cap on its price? The value will keep increasing for as long as people keep believing it's valuable. It may or may not reach absurd prices like 100 thousand dollars or more.

I think there's a good chance that it will. The set of people who value the coin keeps growing. It's grown to the point even companies are buying bitcoin now.

> Are you really not able to think of practical circumstances which would cause the price of Bitcoin to go down?

Sure I can. People could attempt to sell large quantities, crashing the market.

Bitcoin itself could be attacked in any number of ways. Electricity costs could be adjusted to reduce mining efficiency. Nation states could seize control of the network via 51% attacks. I'm not really sure whether these events will come to pass though.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#114

Post by randomsearch » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

Ok I’ve been reading about BTC and I’m finally falling into the “it’s a terrible idea” camp.

Here are the problems I’m concerned about. If Bitcoin supporters want to defend it, please could you explain why:

1. A scaling proof of work is not environmentally disastrous. The “renewable energy” argument doesn’t make sense, I think, and existing financial systems seem to be more energy efficient, but open to other counter arguments.

2. A decentralised ledger which concentrates initial supply amongst a tiny fraction of the world’s population would be a good idea and somehow preferable to the current situation.

Finally, please explain whether Bitcoin is a currency (like the dollar) or a store of value (like gold). If it’s a currency, please explain how it can be used as such when transactions are slow and expensive. If it’s a store of value, please explain why the fact that gold is physically useful and in strictly finite supply (on earth) compared to crypto currencies (in general), does not matter.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#115

Post by etrautmann » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

gnrlst wrote: post #19

The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. It's the main reason I haven't bought, and won't buy, any BTC (regardless of the fact I think the tech is completely subpar). Having said that, there's plenty of really great communities around crypto that shouldn't be pooled together along with Bitcoin. Nano, for example, is probably the most hated altcoin by Bitcoin maximalists (probably because they feel threa…

Why does anyone need to be part of a community around a currency? I don’t feel a sense of community based on being a dollar user.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#116

Post by Priem19 » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

rawtxapp wrote: post #22

gnrlst wrote: post #19

The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. It's the main reason I haven't bought, and won't buy, any BTC (regardless of the fact I think the tech is completely subpar). Having said that, there's plenty of really great communities around crypto that shouldn't be pooled together along with Bitcoin. Nano, for example, is probably the most hated altcoin by Bitcoin maximalists (probably because they feel threa…

> The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. If you go on places like Twitter and reddit somewhat, I agree with you. But if you look on Github, you'll see some of the smartest engineers of our generation working real hard and I wouldn't discount their work based on some loud mouths on social networks.

“you'll see some of the smartest engineers of our generation working real hard”

I've been reading those cheap empty words way too much lately. Unless they are the likes of John von Neumann I'll just assume they're people of average intelligence working on things that look incredibly intimidating to outsiders.

Also, an excerpt from Marcus Aurelius - Meditations: “How corrupt and two-faced is one who claims, 'I intend to be fair and honest in my dealings with you.' What are you up to, my friend? There is really no need for this preamble. The matter will soon become plain. It should be written on your face,* it should ring out immediately in your voice, and shine out at once in your eyes, as the loved one at once knows everything about his lovers from the manner of their glance. In short, a good and honest person should resemble one who smells like a goat in this respect, that anyone who comes near him is immediately aware of it whether he wishes it or not. But the mere pretence of simplicity is like an open blade. There is nothing more odious than the friendship of the wolf for the lamb; avoid this above all. A good, straightforward, and kindly person reveals these qualities in his eyes, and they will not escape you.”

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#117

Post by donovanian » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #83

gnrlst wrote: post #19

The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. It's the main reason I haven't bought, and won't buy, any BTC (regardless of the fact I think the tech is completely subpar). Having said that, there's plenty of really great communities around crypto that shouldn't be pooled together along with Bitcoin. Nano, for example, is probably the most hated altcoin by Bitcoin maximalists (probably because they feel threa…

No coiners are pretty damn toxic. I have friends that will clutch pearls over Bitcoin's energy usage (strange how they've consistently hated BTC since well before that became a talking point), yet will happily take 5 international vacations a year and have the carbon footprint of a medium sized town. Faux righteous indignation is one of the most toxic takes around.

I agree completely, and to push this a little further - name a community that isn't toxic.

The worst part about virtue signalling nowadays is that it throws out the accumulated history and cultural knowledge of humanity - as expressed in art, literature, etc. Which in a million repeated ways demonstrate that evil in humanity is ubiquitous and ever-present.

There's so many people soap-boxing acting like they don't suffer the same circumstance of every other human around them. And it's almost guaranteed that the ones preaching about how they know to do things better are almost always the worst offenders themselves projecting their own mental obsessions onto the world.

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#118

Post by rawtxapp » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #107

rawtxapp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at it from the perspective that ad-clicking has funded the biggest information retrieval system and the biggest human connection platform, yes it was overall socially beneficial.

A counterfactual is that those two things would have happened anyway, and the ad-funded model has deeply corrupted both of them.

I don't think there's world with these counterfactuals in place, do you have any proof?

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#119

Post by rawtxapp » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

Priem19 wrote: post #116

rawtxapp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. If you go on places like Twitter and reddit somewhat, I agree with you. But if you look on Github, you'll see some of the smartest engineers of our generation working real hard and I wouldn't discount their work based on some loud mouths on social networks.

“you'll see some of the smartest engineers of our generation working real hard” I've been reading those cheap empty words way too much lately. Unless they are the likes of John von Neumann I'll just assume they're people of average intelligence working on things that look incredibly intimidating to outsiders. Also, an excerpt from Marcus Aurelius - Meditations: “How corrupt and two-faced is one who claims, 'I intend…

I'm saying it as someone who actually dived pretty deep into both Bitcoin and Ethereum protocols and who has actually seen the research and the code...

Re: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

#120

Post by dandanua » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

dastx wrote: post #84

Bitcoin isn't claiming that it takes corruption out of the human psyche. Corrupt people stay corrupt. All bitcoin does is take unfounded trust away from individual organisations and governments, and instead puts that trust in maths and the collective. It never claimed that it will combat corruption, and likely never will. NFTs are definitely switching me off from cryptocurrencies as I find the use of it ridiculous. S…

Butcoin takes trust away from governments and bankers and puts it in the hands of crypto exchanges, that print fake dollars (Tether) to buy Bitcoin and raise its price. Nice transition.