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Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

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Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#111

Post by 627467 »

hudon wrote: post #106
627467 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is [3] generalizable to all future mining power will require uncle sam permission?

I'm showing evidence for how censorship is happening today in Bitcoin and therefore we cannot claim it to be "censorship resistant". Whether miners co-operate or not with the prosecutors is beside the point. The example of miner co-operation is just to show how easy censorship can be, but from the government's point of view it is just an optimization, not a necessary function.

I don't think you know how mining bitcoin works in theory and practice. I also think you're overestimating (long term) how much users care about what US (I assume from your reference) prosecuters do or not in relation to mining groups that are reachable by US jurisdiction

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#112

Post by rspeele »

gruez wrote: post #85
kelp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You regulate exchanges like Coinbase and Gemini, so there are no legitimate ways to trade your proof of work cryptocurrency for USD (or your local gov backed currency). Then the demand for the crypto currency plummets. In 2010-2011, I traded BTC for USD in person, with a laptop on wifi. And via PayPal with someone I met on IRC, where there was a bot that kept track of your reputation so the BTC sellers would know if…

On the other hand: * cocaine prices aren't $1/kg, even after governments around the world banned it * exotic/endangered species are still being traded for top dollars, despite anti-poaching and anti-trafficking regulations * stolen art is still worth millions

Those things are valued for more than their resale price.

The only reason I would ever want to hold a Bitcoin is that I trust that somebody else will give me something of value for it in the future.

If governments make it very difficult for me to exchange bitcoins for other things, its utility as a "store of value" gets lower. I'd rather store my value in stocks, real estate, gold, or whatever else. The regulation directly interferes with the use case.

On the other hand, all the regulation in the world doesn't interfere with cocaine's use case of getting you high. If governments could make it so that cocaine doesn't get you high, its price would certainly plummet.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#113

Post by 627467 »

root_axis wrote: post #105
gruez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>bitcoin power consumption actually increases because an increase in efficiency means more money if similar rates of power are consumed, except this also has the side effect of increasing mining difficulty, thus making the entire network more energy hungry overall well not really, the amount of bitcoin to be mined is fixed (and actually drops in the long term), so the amount of money that is up for grabs should stay…

Price is one factor, but ultimately the actual price is secondary to the fact that miners are incentivized to hash as much as possible because more hashes per kWh means more earnings, regardless of the actual price, yet this increase in hashes per kWh doesn't actually provide more utility for the network.

Only if miners paid their costs in BTC which they don't (yet).

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#114

Post by rspeele »

Guzba wrote: post #110
rspeele wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you could just as well say Bitcoin isn't actually transferring money, it's just changing whose private keys are able to move a token around. If you define "money" as something you can pay your rent, taxes, and grocery expenses with, Coinbase and the exchanges are the ones that really settle that into money.

Do you believe that distinction is on the same scale as the distinction I pointed out between comparing VISA and Bitcoin? Nothing is completely black and white, but I believe your distinction is into the pedantic territory whereas the other is fundamental. One can certainly pay for goods and services directly with Bitcoin.

I mean, we're never going to get a 1:1 comparison, but I'll put it this way: Visa's not-quite-really transferring money is a whole lot more useful than Bitcoin's not-quite-really transferring money.

And I'm sure that Visa + banks for settlement are still using a lot less energy than Bitcoin if you normalize it to transaction volume. Even if you only count the settlements as "real" transactions.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#115

Post by Guzba »

rspeele wrote: post #114
Guzba wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that distinction is on the same scale as the distinction I pointed out between comparing VISA and Bitcoin? Nothing is completely black and white, but I believe your distinction is into the pedantic territory whereas the other is fundamental. One can certainly pay for goods and services directly with Bitcoin.

I mean, we're never going to get a 1:1 comparison, but I'll put it this way: Visa's not-quite-really transferring money is a whole lot more useful than Bitcoin's not-quite-really transferring money. And I'm sure that Visa + banks for settlement are still using a lot less energy than Bitcoin if you normalize it to transaction volume. Even if you only count the settlements as "real" transactions.

Sure, I agree with this.

I'm personally mixed on crypto but strongly dislike the glossing-over of its various fundamental properties by people taking intense absolute positions about what free people should be able to do. That can get me shaking my fist at the internet, though now I mostly realize these opinions are as irrelevant as mine is, and this is good.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#116

Post by lostmsu »

shitloadofbooks wrote: post #62
xiphias2 wrote: post #42

There are so many frustrated nocoiners here on HN, it’s crazy. It’s interesting that on a tech site people can be more negative towards new technology, than on youtube for example, where I don’t see so much hate....I just don’t understand why.

I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal. My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).

Maybe, but even if it is, does it deserve to be banned as the top comment (as of now) suggests?

I certainly don't think so.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#117

Post by rspeele »

Guzba wrote: post #115
rspeele wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we're never going to get a 1:1 comparison, but I'll put it this way: Visa's not-quite-really transferring money is a whole lot more useful than Bitcoin's not-quite-really transferring money. And I'm sure that Visa + banks for settlement are still using a lot less energy than Bitcoin if you normalize it to transaction volume. Even if you only count the settlements as "real" transactions.

Sure, I agree with this. I'm personally mixed on crypto but strongly dislike the glossing-over of its various fundamental properties by people taking intense absolute positions about what free people should be able to do. That can get me shaking my fist at the internet, though now I mostly realize these opinions are as irrelevant as mine is, and this is good.

Bitcoin definitely has some neat properties. It is interesting having control of your funds being driven purely by your signing keys.

That drew me in with some geeky allure as something quite unique. And the scenarios like "crossing a border with a fortune stored as a memorized passphrase in your head" are cool in a cyberpunk kind of way.

But these days I'm in the "bitcoin is a paperclip maximizer" camp. I don't really want control of my money to be based on crypto keys that I could lose or have stolen with one bad mistake. And proof of work is so wildly expensive for what it does, I can't endorse it.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#119

Post by _y5hn »

verdverm wrote: post #81
dvh1990 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'm talking about financial collapse, not destruction of infra.

Without details, the impact of a financial collapse is unknown. Given how BTC moves in connection with the broader market now, one would expect that the value would crash with the system, especially since BTC has no intrinsic value.

Society know financial collapse. They occur quite regularly every 5-7 years. The outcomes are roughly identical.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#120

Post by Guzba »

rspeele wrote: post #117
Guzba wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I agree with this. I'm personally mixed on crypto but strongly dislike the glossing-over of its various fundamental properties by people taking intense absolute positions about what free people should be able to do. That can get me shaking my fist at the internet, though now I mostly realize these opinions are as irrelevant as mine is, and this is good.

Bitcoin definitely has some neat properties. It is interesting having control of your funds being driven purely by your signing keys. That drew me in with some geeky allure as something quite unique. And the scenarios like "crossing a border with a fortune stored as a memorized passphrase in your head" are cool in a cyberpunk kind of way. But these days I'm in the "bitcoin is a paperclip maximizer" camp. I don't real…

I follow all of this reasoning and really don't disagree. I would just add that, while I don't want All of my money to be based on crypto, I do like that I could feasibly have Some of it. It seems like a richer or more dynamic future.

The PoW stuff, yeah, there is a reason it exists as you know but it is undeniably insane too. PoS is going to be interesting to see how it goes with Eth.

As a third dimension, I am very optimistic that we're on the order of 1 decade away from a huge change in energy, where solar is dirt cheap. If we see an S curve style shift to that mode of energy production, I think the PoW conversation changes a lot.

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