Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 276 posts

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#111

Post by hutzlibu »

edmundsauto wrote: post #21
CivBase wrote: post #10

If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product. We say that a lot but I think a lot of people still don't understand it, especially outside the tech sphere. "Engagement" isn't about building a better service; it's about serving more ads. "Driving user engagement" should be seen as synonymous with "psychologically manipulating users to use the service so they see ads".

Why not “providing value to users so they use the service so they see ads”? A lot of providing value is marketing and engagement. It can be manipulative and it can also be beneficial to the user - both should be accounted for.

"It can be manipulative and it can also be beneficial to the user"

Example please, how it can be beneficial to me, to be manipulated by ads.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#112

Post by PontifexMinimus »

AdmiralGinge wrote: post #34
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

>We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels. I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I coul…

> they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control

That's the plain and simple truth, isn't it? I mean, I don't control facebook.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#113

Post by hashkb »

roughly wrote: post #103
throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

I'd consider the auto industry to be a "baker" industry (for the most part). Ikea's a "baker", GAP is a "baker". A lot of the pre-digital world made pure play baked goods.

Careful with fashion. Fashion trends are manipulated to keep the dopamine flowing if and only if you update your wardrobe every season. All the magazines, shows, etc... it's not entirely innocent of the problems we're discussing.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#114

Post by hashkb »

mdpopescu wrote: post #58
HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is. In my case, boredom. I normally fix that by reading books on my Kindle, but if I don't have it for some reason, the phone is a good substitute.

Kindle app on phone is decent. Better than Instagram.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#115

Post by marcinzm »

NortySpock wrote: post #105
throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

Apple hardware/software, Microsoft Windows, Intel hardware, Netflix (buffet TV shows), Amazon web store (logistics), Etsy store, Steam / GOG Games - all of these (except Netflix) are selling* either hardware or software, to you, once. Netflix is a subscription to access and stream a lot of shows, but it is "fee for subscription service", not all that different from an alarm company subscription, OnStar, or a subscrip…

Most large e-commerce sites including Etsy aren't bakers. They use recommendation engines, personalized site experiences, email marketing campaigns, discount coupons for repeat purchases, dark patterns, offsite re-targeting ads and so on to get you to buy and buy repeatedly.

edit: And the ever fun one of free shipping with a minimum order of X, great way to make you think you're getting a deal by giving them more money.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#116

Post by hashkb »

polynomial wrote: post #37
HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Social media is the cigarette of our generation. Except with cigarettes we could point to the very real physical harms of lung cancer, emphysema, etc. With social media we just have vaguely sinister warnings about addiction and mental health issues, which can seem paltry in comparison. The former was obviously a health problem that was deranging people's bodies, whereas the later is seen largely as a social, not a…

It took a really long time for us to realize that. Doctors used to push cigs.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#117

Post by AdmiralGinge »

PontifexMinimus wrote: post #112
AdmiralGinge wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels. I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I coul…

> they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control That's the plain and simple truth, isn't it? I mean, I don't control facebook.

Yeah it might be true, but it's extremely counterproductive to point this out when you're trying to convince someone of something. People like to feel like they have agency, even if it's mostly an illusion.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#118

Post by cgriswald »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

Apps and websites often don’t honor their own configuration choices. They use loose definitions to slide in advertisements or other unwanted information. They do not give you the granularity to decide what types of information you actually want. They also change them after you’ve taken the time to get it sort of working for you.

You’re not going to give people agency by having them press a button provided by someone else. The button doesn’t really do anything. “Cold turkey” is really the only solution to these mind games.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#119

Post by mumblehat »

A tangential point about the horrifying power of euphemism: I've done some consulting work with some large biopharmaceutical companies in the past and found myself consistently shocked at how effective euphemism was at making people comfortable talking about, and doing, very questionable things. E.g. "Maximizing treatment" = "extend how long a patient requires our medication". This was at a senior level and these were, on the face of it, warm, caring people having a very comfortable and open conversation. I had always assumed decisions that directly disadvantaged the consumer would look different, with some sense of secrecy or at least awareness. Nope, one level of language abstraction is apparently all it takes.

There are countless other examples out there. I just finished "Cruel Britannia" regarding the torture practices of the British over the last century. They were particularly adept at it. Euphemism is such a powerful tool for doublethink and systemic abuses of power.

Post reply on HN