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Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

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Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#111

Post by frompdx »

malandrew wrote: post #99
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

> The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example. They did nothing wrong but the computer says so and nothing can be done. The computer is right in the sense that its decision cannot be undone, and solely to blame since no human can undo its edict or be held accountable, apparently. It is tragic and absurd. All government software should be open source and anyone should be able to investigate th…

I agree with what you are proposing in principle. However, the notion that it is up to each individual to combat the system when it has wronged them while they languish in some kind of bureaucratic limbo is one of the core sicknesses of our system. Apart from having direct access to the source code and the ability to make pull requests, that is exactly what is happening here. The bureaucrats involved know there is a problem but are leaving it up to individual inmates and their advocates, both inside and outside the system, to sort it out.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#112

Post by vntok »

worik wrote: post #97
plif wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to defend anyone, but I'm sure we can find many other reasons why there are so many bugs here unrelated to QA :)

What is QA if it cannot be blamed for low quality?

If the specs are bad, QA will find low quality spots of undefined behaviour (anything goes, ergo it's fine), or even actual logic issues in the specs.

However the software is coded to specs, not to QA's own desires, so the bugs stay.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#113

Post by carlmr »

indymike wrote: post #96
mattmcknight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped this in a comment elsewhere in this discussion, but also makes sense here... I find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucrati…

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

Implementing the law, especially in a common law country like the US is really difficult. The case law that is of primary importance here is often contradictory and fuzzy, as well as changing constantly. In addition the written law doesn't capture the whole situation.

In a civil law system it's more likely achievable, but I'm quite sure the requirements aren't that clear cut judging from the text.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#115

Post by bendbro »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #106
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

Nobody will take that contract. Any mistake in the government specifying what they want you to build can be politically manipulated into a legal matter with some probability you'll end up in prison.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#116

Post by pmontra »

indymike wrote: post #96
mattmcknight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped this in a comment elsewhere in this discussion, but also makes sense here... I find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucrati…

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

16 months is a long time, especially when people are in jail and they should not be there. However in my experience as software developer nothing is simple, but everything can be done.

First problem coming to my mind: do they have the budget to pay the software developers to add this new functionality to the software? Do they have to ask the money to someone else, maybe to the very politicians that changed the requirement?

Then when this is settled there are the usual problems of analysis and implementation. Probably also where to get that input that they didn't have before. It could be a large project. But 16 months, ouch.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#117

Post by jacob2484 »

anchpop wrote: post #105
snicker7 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally none of those reasons justifies keeping someone in a human cage.

Pay each inmate $10k for each day they're unable to leave prison past one week after the end of their sentence. Most inmates probably wouldn't mind staying a couple months longer if it means they get to leave with a million dollars in the bank, and it would correct the state's incentives.

And just would pay this? You and I the taxpayers.... so no thanks to this solution.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#118

Post by jrochkind1 »

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

We all know that it takes more skill (and experience and domain knowledge), and more time up-front, to create software that is easier/cheaper to change later in response to changed requirements.

If you got the cheapest possible software up-front that (barely, technically) met the original requirements, you did it by hiring the least skilled people that could barely pull off exactly what would get the contract paid, and asking them to rush and hurry and pile up technical debt.

So.

In this case, the software perhaps shouldn't have even been considered fulfilling the contract in the first place, that's how crappy it was. The crappier the software, the more expensive changes to it are, we all know that.

> One department whistleblower said the number of problems with the ACIS system was unprecedented in their professional experience. “I have never in my life run across an application like this,” they said. “It’s just been one big cluster.”

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#119

Post by frompdx »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #106
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

My cynical take is that the lack of accountability is exactly what makes software enabled bureaucracy so appealing. If this true, there is no incentive to change.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#120

Post by [deleted] »

edbob wrote: post #94
atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

This is just how bureaucracy typically operates. Everyone knows that the system is messed up, but no one can override the system without potentially huge personal consequences. As a former prison inmate, I honestly think that most of the people affected will be quite happy with the monetary compensation that they'll receive once the courts get done with this. > seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correcti…

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