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The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

realclearscience.com

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Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#111
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what they are concluding. If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate. It becomes inaccurate when there is external bias (like cost or a particular label). Note that the actual article was based on the assessments of students. I wouldn't classify them as trained experts, as I'll detail below. I used to work in a brewery, and part of my job was beer tasting. We used the sam…

I want to push back on one of your central tenets. > f they are tasting it blind ... their taste is accurate It would be more accurate to say the tasting would be less subjective. I don’t think “accurate” is a good word - people all taste things differently due to different taste buds and psychological wirings. But even then, removing the label doesn’t mean people taste anything objectively. They are bringing in thei…

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate."

Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting.

That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually get better with experience—but ultimately one cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how good the training.

I claim no great expertise in the wine-tasting/oenology game and I'm sure that I'd likely have been fooled by the dyed 'red' wine as described in the article (if I were to be so fooled then I would have had a certain class of red wines in mind when doing the comparison).

Nevertheless, I do have little wine experience and I have found that it is often just sufficient to catch out the true BS artists. One only has to be marginally better at discriminating which wine is better than they are then their BS status becomes pretty obvious.

I recall a couple of decades ago attending a rather expensive black-tie blind tasting of about 25 so-called experts with an engineering colleague of mine (he too had had some experience in tasting reasonable-to-good wines). As techies, we were the odd ones out, as we didn't work in the wine industry and most of the others did. Moreover, the master of ceremonies was a long-time well-known wine writer for a large newspaper and had a number of wine books to his name.

As I mentioned, it was a blind tasting and the wines were the then newest (just released) first and second class Bordeaux growths with the exception of the Mouton Rothschild (it was either unavailable or too expensive to include). This much we all knew before the tasting. The aim of the exercise was to determine the best wines then rank them in order using the 3-7-10 scoring system.

Anyway, like many blind tasting, it turned out to be pretty much of a shambles. The so-called experts including the wine writer were all over the place, mistaking first growths for second and vice versa. A final exercise for everyone was to guess the Lafite Rothschild, for without the presence of the Mouton, it was the most expensive wine there. (BTW, it's not the first time I've seen our wine writer in action and he was again true to form on this night.)

The only ones to get the Lafite correct were my colleague and I (I nearly made myself sick from trying to hide my smirks it was so damn funny)! Incidentally, the Lafite wasn't all that hard to guess, as it was true to form and it was also the best wine of the night.

Now back down to earth. Every winter I used to attend a different group for food and wine dinners. They too were black-tie events and were held approximately a month apart. It was organized by a guy who owned a wine cellar/emporium and the dinners/tastings were held at the cellar. This guy was truly one of the best and up there with the likes of Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent—he was certainly the best I've ever come across. Most of us were awestruck by his ability.

Incidentally, all four of these guys are in the Wiki List of wine personalities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine_personalities. Thus is goes to show that sometimes BS can get one almost everywhere.

Incidentally, with respect to being fooled by the dyed white wine. It seems to me that if these oenology student were actually fooled then they must have been familiar with lighter style reds à la Provence or similar and comparing the wine with those reds. For I fail to see how any robust red—Bordeaux first growths, Californian (Stags' Leap Cabernet, etc.) or Australian Reds (Grange or similar) could ever be mistaken for a white or vice versa, irrespective of color or in a blind tasting, for these big red styles are just too distinctive to be mistaken for whites in any circumstances. Even neophytes should be able to tell the difference.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#112

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it clear how "wine expert" is being defined. The one in this article says it used students, who clearly are not experts in any sense of the word. Other studies just handwave away the question and say, "We asked wine experts." If you dig into some of them, it turns…

> This has been debunked repeatedly

Any sources to support that statement?

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#113
post #105
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that raises questions about the quality of the wine more than about anything else. I'm more of a beer guy but I can easily tell white from red wine. Both taste and aftertaste are very different.

With respect, and without any particular knowledge of your experiences, I would suggest that your impression of "red" and "white" wine is shaped by very typical examples of both. There is an incredibly broad array of flavor, mouth feel, aromas, etc., in both red and white wine and while you and I might very reliably discern a Napa Chardonnay from an Argentine Malbec there are many white and red wines that are well of…

> is shaped by very typical examples of both.

which is what everyone means by "red" and "white" wine. when you process your data points you're supposed to remove the outliers.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#114
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s like enjoying a diamond you overpaid for or an art forgery. Just because it makes you happy doesn’t mean you haven’t been swindled.

So, buy cheap wine and enjoy it without regrets! :) I know, that's empty advice. Drinking expensive wine is usually about signalling social status; it's not really about taste.

Well I don’t really drink but it’s the principle of the matter! I want to be happy and content without being swindled.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#115
post #112

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it clear how "wine expert" is being defined. The one in this article says it used students, who clearly are not experts in any sense of the word. Other studies just handwave away the question and say, "We asked wine experts." If you dig into some of them, it turns…

> This has been debunked repeatedly Any sources to support that statement?

https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-profess...

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#116

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it clear how "wine expert" is being defined. The one in this article says it used students, who clearly are not experts in any sense of the word. Other studies just handwave away the question and say, "We asked wine experts." If you dig into some of them, it turns…

Here's how the research went down. First, Brochet gave 27 male and 27 female oenology students a glass of red and a glass of white wine and asked them to describe the flavor of each. The students described the white with terms like "floral," "honey," "peach," and "lemon." The red elicited descriptions of "raspberry," "cherry," "cedar," and "chicory."

I think what this study showed is that oenology try to fit the wine in front of themselves into the framework what they have been taught. You see red wine and try to fit it into this limited framework and describe it.

I think they were fooled indeed.

As a person who likes wine, I simply like to enjoy wine and not to describe it and try to figure out what that smell or taste resembles.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#117
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But its such a profound failure, it warrants skepticism of the field. Or at least of schools that purport to teach a skill, then fail at that entirely.

And a seven year old article without a follow-up also warrants skepticism. People have pointed out problems with the headline conclusion. To the degree that "skepticism" means thinking hard and applying work to discern differences, it would be warranted. To the degree that it's interpreted as general doubtfulness without further effort or thought, that's actually the opposite of true skepticism.

Come on. We know that taste perception is very largely influenced by expectation. Every drink orange juice just to find out it's milk? Taste awful until you figure out "oh that's just milk".

If it seems that wine chatter can be explained entirely by the power of suggestion, then Occam's razor suggests that's all there is to it. There's no need to invent magical barely-detectable subtle flavor attributes to fermented grape juice.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#118
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wine tasters make strong claims, and love to point out what others are missing. Those claims are bunk. If they simply said "That dress is marvelous! It looks great on you! I love the daring neckline!" we could all accept that as effusive enthusiasm. But to pretend to have an entire lexicon, to write endless descriptive books about it, makes wine tasters an entire level of farce above anything else you care to name.

You are wrong. I might have agreed with you 20 years ago, but I know better now. Practice describing the flavours of the wine you drink, and your flavour memory and perception will improve over time. I generally drink a glass or two every evening, and it's usually a new wine, one I've never tasted before. I've written hundreds of tasting notes. One of the most interesting things to come out of this is finding out som…

That describes exactly, the power of suggestion of perception. If it can all be explained by association triggering memory-perception (and it can, as suggested by the idea that 20 years of conditioning make it vivid) then we can reasonably conclude that there's nothing to the wine thing except that.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying into the mid-range is fine. It's what I do with beer a tequila. Buying the $200 bottles is where I question the logic. Even the expert tasters struggle to differentiate between a good $20-30 bottle and a $400 bottle in double blind tests. I don't drink Sanka or Coors, I just use good coffee beans and drink good local beer. I don't spend $200 on exotic coffee beans feral cats have shit out. The only reason I pu…

I don't drink coffee, and probably never will, but I remember listening to a podcast once where two coffee drinkers who derided the whole "eat coffee beans shit out by a civet" idea tried it and said it was the best coffee they had ever had. YMMV

Being an ordinary human, I will never know how trolls trolling trolls had a hand in bringing us this tale of Kopi Luwak.

* you

* the two Kopi Luwak drinkers

* the merchant who sold them the Kopi Luwak

* the modern day manufacturers and wholesalers of Kopi Luwak

* the genius who came up with Kopi Luwak

* the civet

How many are civet shit true believers? How many are trolls — some, none, all?

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#120

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it clear how "wine expert" is being defined. The one in this article says it used students, who clearly are not experts in any sense of the word. Other studies just handwave away the question and say, "We asked wine experts." If you dig into some of them, it turns…

Here's how the research went down. First, Brochet gave 27 male and 27 female oenology students a glass of red and a glass of white wine and asked them to describe the flavor of each. The students described the white with terms like "floral," "honey," "peach," and "lemon." The red elicited descriptions of "raspberry," "cherry," "cedar," and "chicory." I think what this study showed is that oenology try to fit the wine…

Sure. Only a small portion of people care about trying to analyze wine. But it is useful for selling wine. I like wines with lots of non-fruit flavors. Seeing a description with things I have heard used to describe wines I remember liking is useful. So there is a place for descriptors even if I buy wine to enjoy rather than analyze.
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