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Timezone Bullshit

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Re: Timezone Bullshit

#111

Post by eqvinox »

rini17 wrote: post #104
tacostakohashi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? ISO8601 specifies a number of formats. It also specifies how to include the timezone/offset, and that not mentioning a timezone means local time.

So how do I properly serialize a datetime in Europe/Prague time zone? As the article explains the use case where "CET" nor "CEST" nor fixed timezone offset is sufficient. And my actual local time zone is Europe/Bratislava, which may eventually differ from Prague.

I think this is out of scope for ISO 8601, especially since the "Europe/Bratislava" label is a specific reference to the tzdata tables. Another system may use another way of specifying the location for the time zone, e.g. GPS coordinates. (Though in practice I don't think anyone does that; literally everyone uses tzdata.)

The "correct" way is presumably to work with an 8601 timestamp without time zone and carry the time zone spec along in an additional field.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#112

Post by throwaway2245 »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #43
jwalton wrote: post #27

Another reason not to use EST/EDT is that they are overspecifying the time zone in most cases. If you ask for output in EDT, but the date is in December (which is not part of daylight savings time) then should the date output be UTC-4 or UTC-5? Technically you asked for EDT. Using EST as a shortcut isn’t a good idea, either - most software will “know what you mean” and use EST or EDT appropriately... except, both The…

On the topic of DST... can you explain why some countries use DST? Anytime I look for the reasoning of it, it says that DST helps "make better use of daytime" but how? The earth isn't gonna say "Damn! These people changed their clocks. I better change by rotation and give them more sun time." Whether you have DST or not, you still have the same amount of time with sunlight in a day.

The excuse usually given is to match up farm work, which is dictated by dawn, with general work shift patterns.

However, I recall that farmers are very split on the issue when polled - it impacts on their work shifts as well.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#113

Post by nerdponx »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #53
mabbo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golf courses. Well, okay, this is my wonderful father's half serious answer that I love to retell. The basic idea is that it's easier to convince everyone that is actually 5:00pm and time to leave work than it is to convince just your boss that you want to start work an hour earlier and leave and hour earlier. This problem is then applied to politicians and other powerful people, who want to go golfing after work. If…

Are there really places that don't observe DST and also don't change their working hours? Just shift the working hours by a few hours when the seasons change. It also gives more granularity for the changes. If 1 week in the whole season is particularly cold, then change the time again for that 1 week.

Arizona

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#114

Post by Arubis »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #43
jwalton wrote: post #27

Another reason not to use EST/EDT is that they are overspecifying the time zone in most cases. If you ask for output in EDT, but the date is in December (which is not part of daylight savings time) then should the date output be UTC-4 or UTC-5? Technically you asked for EDT. Using EST as a shortcut isn’t a good idea, either - most software will “know what you mean” and use EST or EDT appropriately... except, both The…

On the topic of DST... can you explain why some countries use DST? Anytime I look for the reasoning of it, it says that DST helps "make better use of daytime" but how? The earth isn't gonna say "Damn! These people changed their clocks. I better change by rotation and give them more sun time." Whether you have DST or not, you still have the same amount of time with sunlight in a day.

Source: none, this is my pure supposition and projection.

Power. The sensation of raw power.

By and large, the best way to eliminate DST would be for one or more sufficiently powerful lawmakers or political executives to say: this is no longer benefiting the public at large, and we are going to stop!

These are the folks empowered to change the date on which DST transitions (at least stateside). These are also the same folks whose careers have been mostly defined by the deliberate and incremental accumulation of power into their own hands.

If you're wired for that kind of desire for power, the ability to tell the entire country: okay, I am changing time! It happens on this date! --must be simply _irresistible_. I mean: you're literally changing TIME. Hot shit! The entire population has to respond! You're changing TIME! Why give that up?

While I'm storytelling and presuming, I'll note that this needn't be a deliberate, conscious decision; I'm only suggesting that the people positioned to change this sort of thing are probably naturally wired to resist doing so, and may not even be aware of why themselves.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#115

Post by phaemon »

steerablesafe wrote: post #8
phoronixrly wrote: post #3

> Let's take take a look, using the disastrously bad unix libc timezone tools It seems to me that the author did not initially read the documentation they linked to ( https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/TZ-Variab... ) and is now complaining in an annoying and entitled manner.

It's absolutely right to criticize insane behavior even if said behavior is documented. LOL "helpfully" being substituted to the output is absolutely insane.

No it isn't. If you tell your computer that the timezone your machine is set to is called "LOL", then of course that's what it should report. What else would it do?

It truncated the name because of the underscores, but you can do `TZ=somerandomthing date` to see it just reports what you say it is.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#116

Post by throwaway2245 »

sschueller wrote: post #28

I'm still hoping .beat time[1] will catch on but I have been waiting since 1998... I even made a watch-face for my smartwatch showing .beats [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time

I'm guessing (from your name and enthusiasm) that you live in a place where 0 approximately corresponds to midnight? :)

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#117

Post by snarf21 »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #43
jwalton wrote: post #27

Another reason not to use EST/EDT is that they are overspecifying the time zone in most cases. If you ask for output in EDT, but the date is in December (which is not part of daylight savings time) then should the date output be UTC-4 or UTC-5? Technically you asked for EDT. Using EST as a shortcut isn’t a good idea, either - most software will “know what you mean” and use EST or EDT appropriately... except, both The…

On the topic of DST... can you explain why some countries use DST? Anytime I look for the reasoning of it, it says that DST helps "make better use of daytime" but how? The earth isn't gonna say "Damn! These people changed their clocks. I better change by rotation and give them more sun time." Whether you have DST or not, you still have the same amount of time with sunlight in a day.

We need to get rid of DST switches permanently. We should stick with DST as most people prefer extra light at night.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#118

Post by [deleted] »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #60
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infuriating thing is that our solution to this is to change the clock instead of just changing our schedules. It's completely ridiculous.

...no, actually it’s extremely logical. Changing clocks society wide is far easier than getting every single person and company to adjust its schedule.

[deleted]

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#119

Post by remram »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #66
ceilingcorner wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...no, actually it’s extremely logical. Changing clocks society wide is far easier than getting every single person and company to adjust its schedule.

Perhaps it was easier in the times before the internet. Now a consistent timeline should be far more convenient than not having to change your habits by a little bit. Edit: If changing schedule is normalized, then it would be just as convenient as changing the clock. In countries without DST, if someone started using DST instead of changing their own schedule, it would be just as difficult.

Your argument sounds very similar to the "let's abolish timezones" argument so let me post this again: https://qntm.org/abolish

Changing your schedule works for you and your boss, but does not let people in other parts of the world know when they can reach you. Officially shifting something is necessary, and then you might as well have timezones.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#120

Post by SamBam »

nerdponx wrote: post #113
Lvl999Noob wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really places that don't observe DST and also don't change their working hours? Just shift the working hours by a few hours when the seasons change. It also gives more granularity for the changes. If 1 week in the whole season is particularly cold, then change the time again for that 1 week.

Arizona

Do Arizona banks and post offices and stuff really change their hours in different seasons?
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