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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#111
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship I don't like...

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

I generally support what you're saying, however there are two complicating factors with the Parler deplatforming that make me tolerate it. Not accept it, but tolerate it.

1. Parler was being used specifically to plan out acts of terrorism; and their moderation team took no action to stop it

2. Parler was not a free speech platform

On that first bit: while I generally want big platforms to be regulated like common carriers, they definitely should not be prohibited from making judgment calls as to what is and isn't illegal to publish. If you're a web host and someone sends a tip that someone's operating a fake bank login page on your service, you shouldn't have to wait for someone who got scammed or phished to get a court order before you can shut down obviously illegal activity.

For an example of why that's a problem: DMCA 512 has a case law loophole in which the moment any amount of human moderation happens to a website, the site loses it's copyright safe harbor. So if you have a recommendations algorithm or content ID bot, you have safe harbor. If you hire humans to curate content or search for infringing content, then you're liable for anything you miss to the tune of millions of dollars in damages. This creates a legal incentive to willful blindness.

Parler isn't blind, though. The platform wasn't intending to be a neutral, free-speech content host. They were moderating the platform - just not for violence. Parler was a platform created for Trump extremists and them alone, and they had a history of removing left-leaning or left-wing users from their platform. So under any sort of "common carrier for social media" law they still lose.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#112
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs…

> Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion

Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#113
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime. 2010 Google left China for those reasons. Much have changed since then.

But Google leaving hasn’t improved the civil rights situation in China. This appears to be a moral matter that is beyond the scope of Googles.

I'm going to disagree with you there. Have civil rights in China improved or worsened? Could they be even worse if Google hadn't left.

You're right that this is beyond the scope of Google in the same way that it's beyond the scope of any individual. But together humans can slowly influence other humans and doing the right thing might be a tiny influence but eventually these might add up.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#114
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

And, increasingly, their own banking and internet routing infrastructure as well.

[deleted]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs…

> Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?

I didn't list any philosophy; I listed attributes of philosophies and having those as qualifiers for whether someone is being censored on social media.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs…

> Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?

Changed, what, like the wind? Hypocrites will say whatever they think will get them what they want at the time. Change is a given with hypocrites. Principled philosophy is not.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#117
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs…

Your logic is shit. Who decides on what are lies? Are they perfect and unbiased? It’s far more than election results deniers that are being banned nowadays. If you ban lies then you should ban astrologists, most politicians, flat earthers, indeed most people.

This isn’t a thought experiment. This has been happened throughout history. The Church imprisoned Galileo for saying that the Earth goes around the Sun. McCarthyism caused many people to be fired for their beliefs. Indeed may left wing people are now being banned from the platforms. Furthermore, many more people are voluntarily silencing themselves (which is what the platforms really want).

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#118
post #71
post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

Given that the UK is quite literally a theocracy i wouldnt say there is much of a diference there...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

Totally right. Remember that capital doesn't have a nation. Companies registered in the US have to comply with US laws. But a legal entity in Pakistan have to obide by those rules. And if it's profitable - they will. Replace Pakistan with any other country name, the argument doesn't change. It's the law in that jurisdiction. You can't really mix and match the legislation you like and don't like. No idea if the partic…

Funny how Apple and Google are still fine with doing business in Pakistan.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#120
To get an idea how rampant Islamism is in Pakistan when it comes to Ahmadis, read this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-politics-idUSKCN...

Pakistan will literally sacrifice its economy for the sake of keeping Mullahs happy. It's sad and despicable.

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