Live data from Hacker News

Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

doitwithoutdues.com

111–120 of 204 posts

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#111
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here. Many of us don’t like unions. We consider them to be parasitic organizations that pervert the employer-employee-customer relationship without adding value. In fact, by twisting a business so that it is run for the benefit of the employees instead of for the mutual benefit of employees,…

>In fact, by twisting a business so that it is run for the benefit of the employees instead of for the mutual benefit of employees, employer, and customers, they destroy value. An union negotiates/help negotiate, an employer would never run it's business if there was no benefit for them. Do you really believe that unions make it so only employees and not the employer benefit?

> Do you really believe that unions make it so only employees and not the employer benefit?

If the employer doesn’t accrue some marginal benefit, he’ll liquidate his investment if he is able. So he has to get something, and a good parasite will make sure not to kill the host.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#112

I got a weird vibe of WW II-era propaganda from it, the cute music bopping dog... like a modern version of something out of a newsreel piece, or a parody of it from a Fallout videogame. It's so blatant & over the top that I'd almost believe the union organizers set it up to make Amazon look bad. And it's telling that they focus pretty exclusively on the $500 in dues: They pay their employees little enough that they k…

They pay their employees so much that they only make $1k/employee in profit. The dues on top of whatever useless shit the union negotiates for could put amazon back into the read without any benefit for anyone except union officials. Pleade strike the first sentence of this comment, thanks.

No, they agressively undercut competitors (to attempt to force them out of the market) so much that they only make $1k/employee profit. What a ridiculous narrative you're trying to push.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can the average American worker be so unfamiliar with the case against unions? We are inundated with anti-union propaganda practically from birth. I disagree on the pervasiveness of anti-union propaganda. Perhaps this is your experience, it has not been mine. > Barely any of us are unionized, corporations have gone to the ends of the earth to disempower or dismantle unions for the past 40-50 years, and you hard…

> if they were dead inside I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me as if I were. > Thats your experience Yes, that's my experience. My experience is extremely common. Have you not worked any blue collar or service jobs?

I have, I’ve been a welder/fabricator, a machine operator, a forklift driver, and a temp. I’ve seen anti-union propaganda. I’ve seen pro-union propaganda. And I’m familiar enough with the discourse that I don’t wonder why anyone chooses what they choose. And there are evil parasites on both sides. But rarely do I see people acknowledge the arguments of the other side, usually just calling them parasites.

> I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me as if I were.

This whole ting started because they said that how could someone do that unless they were dead inside which I inferred to mean they hadn’t been exposed to any reasons why someone would do that, and you couldn’t believe that anyone would be unaware as to the legitimate rational case against unions based on workers’ interests. So I observed that you didn’t share the same reaction as the original commenter when you were exposed to the propaganda.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> higher performing workers Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?”

> Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I mean “higher performing” according to the people who pay them. > I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?” I’ve been a welder/fabricat…

> Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced.

I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker.

Conversely in my experience retaining a high performing developer at market rates is easier, because the job is more rewarding (that’s what I think makes the job easier to do).

I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance.

Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees.

I expect 20 years from now there will be no scarcity of developers, and the vast majority of them will not be paid nearly as much as US manual workers - primarily because they will be working in poorer countries with labour laws that favour the employer.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#115

I got a weird vibe of WW II-era propaganda from it, the cute music bopping dog... like a modern version of something out of a newsreel piece, or a parody of it from a Fallout videogame. It's so blatant & over the top that I'd almost believe the union organizers set it up to make Amazon look bad. And it's telling that they focus pretty exclusively on the $500 in dues: They pay their employees little enough that they k…

They pay their employees so much that they only make $1k/employee in profit. The dues on top of whatever useless shit the union negotiates for could put amazon back into the read without any benefit for anyone except union officials. Pleade strike the first sentence of this comment, thanks.

Amazon is free to refuse to sign any contract with the union that doesn't leave them with their desired level of profitability. Forming a union doesn't change that.

Amazon undercuts competitors and plays hard ball with suppliers literally every day. That's business, that's life. I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you make it illegal to provide bad jobs, those jobs will not be substituted one-for-one for good jobs. That's not how an economy works. I think this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. If you are a smart business, you don't charge what's "fair", you don't start by saying "I'm going to pay $X to my workers, so let's see how many I can hire with that money." Those are bad ways to run a busi…

> Similarly, if you get rid of labor laws and reduce the minimum wage for Amazon's workers, it's not going to hire twice as many people just because it has the money. It'll increase its profit margins, because it's a business being run by smart people who understand how supply/demand works. No, they will lower prices and keep margins constant. This prevents competitors from moving in. Similarly, increased benefits fr…

> No, they will lower prices and keep margins constant. This prevents competitors from moving in.

I'm not sure what to say about this other than, no, they won't.

If you're a publicly traded company, your investors want profit margins to go up, not stay the same. Unless you can convince them otherwise because you're growing -- but even then, they still want your profit margins to eventually rise.

If you go into a business thinking "I want to make $X, and I'll lower my prices until I hit that target", then you're approaching your business the wrong way.

Even in cases where companies are trying to cement a monopoly or drive competitors out of business, they still don't make their pricing decisions based on the cost of material/labor, they make their pricing decisions based on what prices will drive competitors out of business. Companies like Uber famously lose money on many of their services because they're trying to cement monopoly statuses for those industries. They get VC money and they price based on what they think they need to price. Their decisions are based on what the market looks like, and they're willing to have negative profits in order to hit the prices that they think are necessary.

In both cases, no competent business owner is thinking "I only want to hit $X profits this year, and anything over that is going to the consumers as a gift so that they'll like me."

> Similarly, increased benefits from collective bargaining will result in higher prices for amazon goods and services

See above, that's not how markets work. You don't charge what a product costs to make, you charge what the market will bear. Literally the first thing you should learn in an economics class. Products cost what people will pay for them.

This is (arguably) the entire cornerstone of free market Capitalism -- the idea that the value of a set of inputs into a business is not necessarily the same as the value of its outputs. One of the big points of Capitalism is that products get priced based on what people are willing to pay, not based on what they cost to produce or based on some kind of predetermined formula. If you have to pay your workers more, tough luck. Under Capitalism, your products are still only worth what the market is offering.

> and more automation

As opposed to right now, where Amazon isn't trying to automate any part of its warehousing or delivery process?

And in any case, automation is good. We want to eliminate bad jobs. And even among automation-critics who worry about lost jobs and the cost of retraining, their goal in opposing automation is not to make those jobs periodically worse and worse to try and keep pace with the price of machines.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#117
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in the U.S.? You say you don't get paid leave as a software developer, are you a contractor?

I’m in Canada, but I work an hourly contract with no explicit vacation time. By law I need to be paid some minimum amount to cover the bare minimum of vacation time (4% of my wage, I think) but ultimately if I’m on vacation, I’m not going to get a pay cheque.

maybe there is a language thing here buy you said you are on an hourly contract?

Are you employed by this company as a full time employee, or are you a contractor?

In the U.S. at least, this is a night and day difference so I guess that is why I am trying to get clarification on that.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they were dead inside I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me as if I were. > Thats your experience Yes, that's my experience. My experience is extremely common. Have you not worked any blue collar or service jobs?

I have, I’ve been a welder/fabricator, a machine operator, a forklift driver, and a temp. I’ve seen anti-union propaganda. I’ve seen pro-union propaganda. And I’m familiar enough with the discourse that I don’t wonder why anyone chooses what they choose. And there are evil parasites on both sides. But rarely do I see people acknowledge the arguments of the other side, usually just calling them parasites. > I'm not th…

> I’ve seen anti-union propaganda.

You yourself haven't even had the experience of going through life without seeing a significant amount of anti-union propaganda. Yet you believe there are people who miraculously have.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I mean “higher performing” according to the people who pay them. > I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?” I’ve been a welder/fabricat…

> Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced. I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker. Conversely in my experience retaining a high performing developer at market rates is easier, because the job is more rewarding (that’s what I think makes the job easier to do). I think what you are talking about is scarcity dri…

> I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker.

high performing manual workers negotiate superior wages unless they are restrained by a union

> I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance.

So they are related but the key concept here is that a low performer is more easily replaced, and so does not have the negotiation power to negotiate a higher wage. So these workers benefit from a union.

> Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees.

It would be a good thing for the replaceable workers and a bad thing for the less replaceable workers.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#120

Wow. Just...wow. Maybe the line with the worst rhetorical trick is this bullshit in the "joining a union" FAQ: "Q: Will a union provide better wages and benefits? A: A union cannot guarantee better wages and benefits. With union negotiations, you could end up with more, the same.... or less than what you make today." I love that because it works exactly as well when you just negate the question: "Q: Will NOT having a…

Q: Will NOT having a union provide better wages and benefits? A: Yes, it could. Unions introduce parasitic loss and collective bargaining. Collective bargaining allows a large part of the workforce to negotiate as one unit and consequently higher performing workers are unable to negotiate a salary commensurate with their performance. In order to retain higher performing workers, corporations end up paying average per…

A union in Germany negotiates income in multiple income brackets. People on the same bracket get the same income. As an employee you just negotiate which bracket you are on. You can still get more income from better performance.
Post reply on HN