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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

theguardian.com

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Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#111

Post by delecti »

athriren wrote: post #87
delecti wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I asked though. I'm not asking whether or not Dante should have his conviction overturned. Though on that note, I'm not convinced it should be, because it seems his crimes were for actual corruption while in public office, and waging war against the government. But no, I'm pointing out that it seems like his conviction was already overturned, so what exactly is the complaint?

i love this kind of chutzpah. dante is exiled from a city he lovingly intersperses throughout his fiction in some of the most famous and beautiful and utterly complex poetry of all time by one of the most famously corrupt rulers in all of human history for things he wrote ~in his poems~ and over 700 years later the sum total of human technology allows someone to say his political conviction by a no longer existing st…

I will readily admit that I don't have much context on the environment around or the legitimacy of his conviction, which is why my main point wasn't about that. I only added it as a response to that reply specifically asking about that aspect.

My main point remains "I think his conviction was already overturned, so there's no gesture left to for modern authorities to symbolically make".

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#112

Post by notorandit »

gattilorenz wrote: post #103
notorandit wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like Austria was. Just a geographic expression that acquired some political meaning at a certain point in time. The word "Italia" dates back to before Rome was not even a town. It used to be the name given to all those populations living in the central and southern part of the peninsula because of their habit to worship the "vitello" (calf) or to breed calfs. Before becoming a politically united nation, they use…

> Before becoming a politically united nation, they used to speak the very same language from Sicily to Piedmont, from Veneto to Sardinia. "Italia" was a geographic expression only for the blinds. Source? According to linguist De Mauro, before the Italian unification the percentage of Italian speakers was around 2.5% (on 25 millions inhabitants). Most of the people were speaking their own dialects, which - albeit des…

> According to linguist De Mauro ... Source?

Mine is here: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_italiana#Dal_latino_vol...

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#113

Post by gattilorenz »

notorandit wrote: post #112
gattilorenz wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before becoming a politically united nation, they used to speak the very same language from Sicily to Piedmont, from Veneto to Sardinia. "Italia" was a geographic expression only for the blinds. Source? According to linguist De Mauro, before the Italian unification the percentage of Italian speakers was around 2.5% (on 25 millions inhabitants). Most of the people were speaking their own dialects, which - albeit des…

> According to linguist De Mauro ... Source? Mine is here: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_italiana#Dal_latino_vol...

Your source quotes De Mauro as well :)

I guess it very much depends on whether you consider writers, academics, and in general literate people, or the majority of the populace. In the former case, it's true that Italian was used across the peninsula.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#114

Post by zabzonk »

hansjorg wrote: post #93
zabzonk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people seemed to appreciate Alan Turing (and lots of other people) being pardoned for something that should never have been a crime in the first place. Basically, it's a very concrete sign of how we want our society to be now.

Couldn't it also be interpreted as a whitewashing of the people and institutions that were guilty of condemning him? Maybe I'm misunderstanding a 'pardon', but it sounds like the state is saying, 'what you did was wrong, but we forgive you' when what it should be saying is 'we were wrong to condemn you'. The whole ordeal has an air of 'might is always right'.

I agree in general with you about pardons, but there was also an apology for Turing's treatment from the then prime minister, Gordon Brown.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#115

Post by edgyquant »

gattilorenz wrote: post #94
edgyquant wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a side note the unifications of Italy and Germany are fascinating history and the culture that emerged due to them is also likely the reason those are the two most famous historical fascist nations (and why it was born in those places.) The nationalism required to (and built up for the purpose) unify the countries gave rise to ultra nationalism as generations of wanting to have a greater nature built a population…

I like this explanation very much, I just don't know if I can agree with it. If it's taken from a historian or you have any in-depth references, I would be happy to read more about it! Big reasons why fascism was born in Italy was the counter-revolutionary movement as a response to the big socialist movement and the disastrous social and economical situation after WWI, which seem equally common in Germany but also in…

While Prussian culture and the unification of Germany has been done to death in regards to the origin of Nazism (my personal favorite detailing of that history and how Nazism may have its roots in that culture is Iron Kingdom) I’m not sure I’ve read a similar account irt Italy, it is just my pet theory.

Further, I’d argue that Portugal and Spain can play a role to help further this theory. While Italy and Germany spent the years developing a national identity at war to enlarge their nations (and form this outright) Spain and Portugal spent that same time period developing into a single culture while fending off newcomers and trying to keep their nations intact. For this reason their form a fascism was less expansionist (or to be correct, was less able to be convinced that expansion was their only hope.)

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#116

Post by [deleted] »

nafey wrote: post #78
Metacelsus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since DNA is inherited as discrete molecules, it's most likely he has 0% identical-by-descent. (Except if he's a direct male-line descendant.) But I don't think genetics has anything to say about legal standing.

> Except if he's a direct male-line descendant Would direct male descendants have more common DNA? Why is that?

[deleted]

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#117

Post by athriren »

unixhero wrote: post #101
athriren wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i love this kind of chutzpah. dante is exiled from a city he lovingly intersperses throughout his fiction in some of the most famous and beautiful and utterly complex poetry of all time by one of the most famously corrupt rulers in all of human history for things he wrote ~in his poems~ and over 700 years later the sum total of human technology allows someone to say his political conviction by a no longer existing st…

You write beautifully, yet with too long sentences :).

thanks for the feedback, re-reading that makes me want to take a breath. :)
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