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Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

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Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#111

Post by ianai »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #82
LatteLazy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I get why people don't want facial recognition cameras on every street corner but using it to identify people from pics is a different activity... Edit: I completely agree there is nothing special about this case. No exigent circumstances.

> Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I think so. That mechanism is judicially auditable. The AI is not. We should not be arresting people based on the output of an unauditable mechanism.

It’s not auditable and scale can make it a substantially different problem altogether. But, if you’re in a restricted area or a public building I think it makes sense.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#112

Post by morsch »

newguy1234 wrote: post #96
ineedasername wrote: post #83

I don't understand the beard trend. (Pictured in the article) It seems like a huge portion of anti-government and/or ardent President Trump supporters have those big untrimmed beards. Is it regional based on where many such supporters live? I certainly don't see any ideological link to untrimmed beards, so it must be some other co-occuring factor.

Conservative men pride themselves in being distinctly men so they exaggerate the masculine traits like a beard.

Ah yes, conservative men, known since time immemorial for their scraggly beards and unkempt attire. Like Eisenhower!

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#113

Post by klyrs »

remarkEon wrote: post #65
walls wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identifying terrorists is a positive outcome.

This statement in the abstract is correct. The context in which it’s applied ... well I’m sure many actually believe Trump supporters are “literally” terrorists. This technology was of course also used to identify those laying siege to various federal buildings over the summer, but I guess it’s okay now. This is to say that the context in which this technology is used obviously matters a lot and is directly related t…

I'm not really accustomed to thinking about what others want me to think, but if you're like many who are trying to guess what progressives want you to think; facial recognition bad, clearview extra bad.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#114

Post by pvarangot »

zozbot234 wrote: post #104
throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

The argument from the other side is that this proponents of right-leaning views wouldn't be violent except because they are being exalted by fascist propaganda from right wing leaders. I myself think it's a good move from Amazon but I don't think it's not polically motivated. The Capitol being stormed is not good for business because of many reasons, it was a line in the sand.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#115

Post by theblazehen »

newguy1234 wrote: post #91
kristofferR wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about every criminal though.

In this situation we're talking about a bunch of conspiracy nut jobs compared to a cold-blooded criminal that premediates their violent crimes.

Or someone who smoked a little bit of weed.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#116

Post by j8hn »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #81
Steltek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the back and forth of terminology ("rioter" vs "terrorist" vs "attacker") because I think that's the key to this discussion. The military is given access to dramatically more advanced weapons and technology than police. When the US has suffered such an obviously violent and direct attack (vs planning or "alleged"), is that not a reason to loosen the restraints? However, it's hard to put the genie back in the b…

> I love the back and forth of terminology ("rioter" vs "terrorist" vs "attacker") There was a mix of terrorists, insurrectionists, rioters, hooligans and protesters in the crowd. Those who entered the Capitol were no longer protesters. Those damaging or stealing property were more than hooligans. Those aiming to disrupt the election count were more than rioters. And those with aims on harming members of Congress wer…

I agree that we shouldn't paint all the people in attendance with a broad brush.

What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#117

Post by shuntress »

zozbot234 wrote: post #104
throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

>Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them

Expulsion can be appropriate for dealing with people who harm society.

It should be used with caution but does have its place.

De-integrating (so to speak) may sometimes be a required first step before effective "re-integrating" can occur.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#118

Post by j8hn »

fpgaminer wrote: post #22
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion. Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, ha…

Who was terrorized during the events at the Capitol building?

Also, how were those events a racist failure of the police force?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#119

Post by VBprogrammer »

Barrin92 wrote: post #77
LatteLazy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I get why people don't want facial recognition cameras on every street corner but using it to identify people from pics is a different activity... Edit: I completely agree there is nothing special about this case. No exigent circumstances.

I'm more concerned with the data being in the hand of an unaccountable private company than with the facial recognition itself to be honest. I remember that Clearview AI itself was associated with far-right individuals last year, so having them police a far-right insurrection from their personal black box system is more than suspect. If it happens, it should be done by an institution that is under the supervision of…

Personally, I'm not really comfortable with the existence of a database of people from which to compare faces against.

However, I think it's perhaps more worrying that one day this evidence will be presented in court and the jury will trust the accuracy of "AI" over their own judgment.

To clarify, the situation I'm thinking of is where a grainy CCTV image is shown to the jury. The AI expert comes in and talks about all of the technical details of their algorithm and how it determines that the grainy image is of defendant A with 96% probably.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#120

Post by mike_d »

jusonchan81 wrote: post #53

Isn’t it possible to use cell phone location to identify exactly who went inside the Capitol buildings? It’s something that the police system uses anyways and I guess it must be being used. What happened was a shame, but I truly hope this doesn’t evolve and make it worse than what it is already.

First, law enforcement never talks publicly about this capability because it only works if the bad guys don't think about it. Secondly, all the major carriers deployed temporary cell sites to the area in advance of the inauguration which likely has complicated and delayed the requests.
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