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DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

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Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#111

Post by imtringued »

Taek wrote: post #92
guiriduro wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably see it in terms of bottom line rather than top line, i.e. the operating margin gained on each sale is about $12M according to wikipedia, so they would need to sell 200 maxes to obtain the net cash they will use to pay the fines.

You're telling me the fine is something like 5% of the profit collected from making the 737MAX?

Sounds like the real punishment should have been the abolishment of the 737 MAX. All the R&D money would be lost and they'd have to start over with a new model.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#112

Post by imtringued »

haltingproblem wrote: post #15

There is a notion that Boeing is/was a company with an insanely great engineering culture and their engineers lived in an idyllic culture of building great and safe products. This great culture was all lost as a result of the merger with McDonnell Douglas [1], [2], [3]. This argument is frequently put forth by ex-Boeing engineers. This is an apologia for Boeing's behavior which killed 346 people and endangered the li…

>So strong is the apologists conviction in the purity of Boeing's engineering culture that they ignore the fact that thousands of engineers worked on the 737 Max. Not a single engineer raised issues with the engineering of the aircraft. Not a single engineer wrote a blistering memo calling out its failing or quit in protest. They were all held in thrall, paralyzed and forced to go against their ethics, professionalism, decency by the power of this unholy trinity!

Why would this matter? The MCAS software is the only thing that failed. It probably only involved a dozen engineers and they did their job to a reasonable extent. What if none of them were told that the pilots are not trained to be aware of the MCAS?

The real failure is that there was a pseudo autopilot software that completely overrode pilot control. Why did it override pilot input? Because managers wanted to sell it as a 737 upgrade with 0 training required. Making the 737 MAX safe does not neccesarily require better engineering, pilot training alone would be more than enough.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#113

Post by laurent92 »

londons_explore wrote: post #95
just_steve_h wrote: post #83

Boeing's fine is essentially nothing more than a one-time 10% rebate to their largest customer. (Reference: In 2017, Boeing booked over $22 BILLION in revenue from the US government. https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/01/02/ho... )

> Boeing booked over $22 BILLION in revenue from the US government. Which, by the way, is totally not state support, especially if anyone from Airbus is within hearing distance...

Does it bar the EU and China from conducting their own criminal investigation, ask for extradition of the management team and/or impose their own fines?

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#114

Post by laurent92 »

S53Vflnr4n wrote: post #104

$500 million fund for crash victims family members (346 human lives) and $1.77 billion for its airline customers. Justice served. Now Boeing can rinse and repeat not to mention bail out from tax payers if there is a need to be. So who went to jail for this ? I know that if I steal from Walmart, I will be arrested and possibly get jail time.

Is $1.77 billion enough, when companies had to ground 700 airframes for more than a year, only to reopen during the Covid lockdowns? It feels like it is not 100% served, although justice cases are never 100% satisfying.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#115

Post by blackboxlogic »

Number157 wrote: post #79
mehrdadn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we arrest the executive team out of principle? How about prohibiting them from holding executive positions in the future?

Good luck hiring anyone for a struggling company. Can't turn it around? You get punished.

Well, if the company is struggling to NOT kill people...

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#116

Post by 1123581321 »

haltingproblem wrote: post #74
1123581321 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is uninteresting as the engineers are only making a limited point that the superior character of the engineering organization has been lost, relative to the demands of buyers and the FAA. It’s not a novel theory to suggest a merger or acquisition can cause this to happen more obviously than a national or world event.

The theory is just that - a theory and a convenient one at that since it exonerates Boeing engineers. The is no evidence supporting the theory (verification) and more interesting it is not falsifiable. It is just a narrative.

It is falsifiable, given access to the record of management decisions and hiring data and some agreement on what a consequential company decision would look like.

Whether some people think it “exonerates” current engineers doesn’t matter. I don’t think it does, personally.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#117

Post by kryogen1c »

csours wrote: post #58
kryogen1c wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blaming individuals is very satisfying "Responsibility is a unique concept... You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you... If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you hav…

This is the best context I can find: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hearings/IcO0QpCJdQYC?h... I strongly agree with his comments in their original context.

>I strongly agree with his comments in their original context.

is the implication that you do not agree within this context?

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#118

Post by daniel-cussen »

saiya-jin wrote: post #96
bdowling wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations in the USA have the same legal rights as individuals... They don't. For example, 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination do not apply to corporations. Also, corporations have a right to an attorney but one is not provided to them free of charge by the government. > But when it comes to criminal liability, the people in charge are not held accountable... Bernie Madoff, Jeffrey Skilling, Mar…

Name one CEO of massive company with good relationship with US government that ever went to jail for things like 2008 financial crisis, or similar moral failures and criminal acts. As much as those names you named are important, they are peasants compared to power wielded by the big guys.

Bernie Madoff was no peasant. He started the NASDAQ, and apart from not meeting your requirement of being a massive company CEO, ticked off all the boxes. He got 150 years in prison.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#119

Post by csours »

kryogen1c wrote: post #117
csours wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the best context I can find: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hearings/IcO0QpCJdQYC?h... I strongly agree with his comments in their original context.

>I strongly agree with his comments in their original context. is the implication that you do not agree within this context?

You used the quote in reply to my statement

> Blaming individuals is very satisfying

I was not sure how you intended it, as you did not provide any other comment, so I went looking for the original context.

Here's how I understood the original context: Congress was looking for who to blame nuclear incidents on. Adm Rickover pointed out that for Thresher, very many of the responsible people in the production and development process changed multiple times during the process. He also pointed out that Congress, as the funding body still maintained some responsibility.

In the context of Boeing, I think it does apply, in the sense that the development project was faulty, albeit in a different way than the development of Thresher. It also applies in the fact that the funding body bears responsibility (Boeing shareholders and management). This is my interpretation. Everyone is free to make their own.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#120

Post by benhurmarcel »

oblio wrote: post #105
londons_explore wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boeing booked over $22 BILLION in revenue from the US government. Which, by the way, is totally not state support, especially if anyone from Airbus is within hearing distance...

Well, at the level they're at, and considering the strategic and military considerations, everybody does it. I'm reasonably sure EU countries do the same with Airbus, and I'm European.

They do, but Boeing gets about double the military activity of Airbus.
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