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How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

mtlynch.io

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Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#111

Post by jaclaz »

mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

If I may, I am not convinced that the "professional way" solved anything.

Of course just my opinion, but I read:

>In the meantime, how do you wish to resolve the matter? What outcome are you wishing for?

as an amicable prompt to find a way to solve a trifling matter in a short time.

I mean, the "professional way" has nothing to do with managing to escalate to the CEO (how exactly did you manage to get his e-mail?).

Besides, a sentence like "I will seek other means to recover the money owed." is ambiguous enough to be easily read as a threat, as there may be "other means" that are not legal.

So - still as I read it - you hassle the CEO of a company, and Mr. Herscu is tasked to understand what the issue is about, and as soon as he finds out that the matter can be solved with paying 88 US$ he pays, problem solved.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#112

Post by mtlynch »

raz32dust wrote: post #29

How is there no better way to track conversions in a standard way by a third party? This whole win relies on the fact that the affiliate manager let out the real policy. She could have just said that there were no conversions, and the author would basically have no recourse?

Author here.

Yeah, that was my initial thought too, but thinking about it more, I understand why that doesn't exist.

Merchants are the ones paying the affiliate platforms, so the affiliate platforms don't have incentive to create features designed to increase power of the affiliates at the expense of the merchant.

Affiliates in this space don't seem to be very discriminating. The only communities I've found for keto affiliate marketers are the groups run by the merchants themselves, so it's not like they're searching for information about which merchants are honest or not. I think the general trend is to try a merchant, monitor how much they pay you, then move on if the dollar amount is too low.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#113

Post by mtlynch »

dcminter wrote: post #107
mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

Strong disagree with the sibling comment. I thought it was an easy read and the timeline was clear. I do think it ran a little long, but no worse than that.

Thanks for reading! Glad to hear you had an easy time following the details.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#114

Post by mtlynch »

jaclaz wrote: post #111
mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

If I may, I am not convinced that the "professional way" solved anything. Of course just my opinion, but I read: >In the meantime, how do you wish to resolve the matter? What outcome are you wishing for? as an amicable prompt to find a way to solve a trifling matter in a short time. I mean, the "professional way" has nothing to do with managing to escalate to the CEO (how exactly did you manage to get his e-mail?). B…

Thanks for reading!

Yeah, it's tough to say what would have happened with a different approach. I'm obviously biased, but I still feel like the communication style made a big difference. Given how hostile Herscu was in the first email, I don't think I would have reached successful resolution had I just angrily demanded payment.

>I mean, the "professional way" has nothing to do with managing to escalate to the CEO (how exactly did you manage to get his e-mail?).

No, that's a critical part of it. The thing I learned from patio11's article was how valuable it is to navigate their bureaucracy and get to someone who has incentive to help you.

Everyone else at the company who was emailing me had the email "[firstname]@kissmyketo.com". I looked up the CEO's name and confirmed the email by Googling "alex@kissmyketo.com", which turns up several of the company's old blog posts that invite readers to email him directly.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#115

Post by bitcharmer »

fourstar wrote: post #98
mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

It’s incredibly scattered. Like you just dumped whatever was on your mind and clicked publish and walked away.

Looks like you've read a different article then.

This write up is very well structured and reads very easily.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#116

Post by newdude116 »

GordonS wrote: post #110
newdude116 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use your US CC, make charge-backs. Big surprise once for Wizz Air :-) In general: You have to find a weak spot. I have problems with a scam (ongoing) in an East European EU country and I have been trying to get the authorities for 6 months to act. Even hiring a lawyer has been extraordinary difficult. Most don't reply Emails, others charge exorbitant fees, our last lawyer is MIA so we are trying now with a lawyer tha…

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

In my experience charge backs are not so common in mainland Europe. A US CC issuer (and I am a customer since 18 years with the same card) can be much more aggressive about this. I think Wizz air has never dealt with an US CC :-)

Nevertheless I don't abuse this. I only request a charge back if I assume I also would win a lawsuit. But nobody has ever challenged one of my charge backs in court.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#117

Post by newdude116 »

GordonS wrote: post #110
newdude116 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use your US CC, make charge-backs. Big surprise once for Wizz Air :-) In general: You have to find a weak spot. I have problems with a scam (ongoing) in an East European EU country and I have been trying to get the authorities for 6 months to act. Even hiring a lawyer has been extraordinary difficult. Most don't reply Emails, others charge exorbitant fees, our last lawyer is MIA so we are trying now with a lawyer tha…

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

"I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain."

What is also very stupid since they don't lose only the money but also very likely a customer.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#118

Post by mtlynch »

greenkey wrote: post #74

I like this post but “unscrupulous merchant” seems harsh for a company that may have changed their policies and didn’t realize they had to inform the referring agent of those changes. It’s not uncommon for policies to change; that initial marketing spiel for bringing agents aboard doesn’t look like a contract. The reselling agent probably didn’t have a case here, and the merchant went out of their way to assist when…

Thanks for reading!

>I like this post but “unscrupulous merchant” seems harsh for a company that may have changed their policies and didn’t realize they had to inform the referring agent of those changes.

Even giving them an extremely generous benefit of the doubt, I can't think of a way to describe them as anything better than "unscrupulous."

If it truly was an honest mistake that they forgot to tell affiliates they changed policies, their reaction upon finding out should have been, "Oh wow! Thanks for telling us! We owe hundreds of people money, so we'd better review our transactions and pay everyone what they're owed." But instead, they (as far as I know) only paid me and never informed any of the other affiliates.

Also bear in mind, that you can't just "forget" to tell people that you changed the terms of your business relationship with them. If I hired hundreds of employees by advertising a $20/hr wage, I can't just privately decide that their pay is lower and secretly reduce their paychecks until one of them notices.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#119

Post by 0xfaded »

stickfigure wrote: post #42

Geez. This article was hard to follow but... it sounds like the merchant is really screwing up. My SaaS business gets most of our users via an affiliate program, and many years ago I worked in porn where nearly all of our users from an affiliate program. The #1 rule of affiliate programs is to treat affiliates like royalty. Or more accurately - business partners. Be clear about what you offer, be generous, and always…

Is there a good way to contact an online business directly and say "It seems you pay a 20% affiliate fee. I would like a 20% discount?" Amazon kinda does this with smile and donations, even though I don't use amazon anymore.

I go out of my way, with link strippers, cookie removers, adblockers, to the point of often manually copy and pasting links into a private window if necessary, to avoid affiliate links. When I do this I usually feel like I'm supporting the online store, but there are some cases (e.g. I'm looking for an oversized mattress) where I know the whole industry is corrupt and I just want to pay as little rent as possible.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#120

Post by wdb »

amenod wrote: post #108
ornornor wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction. I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail , wait 3 weeks, never hear back. Compa…

This might explain it - Switzerland is in Europe, but not part of EU. At least in EU consumer has lots of rights and is pretty well protected. I have no idea how that is in Switzerland (though what you report surprises me). That said, legal action in Europe... good luck. :) If this happens to you a lot, go for a credit card. "Chargeback" works worldwide (afaik) and it puts you in the position of power, where merchant…

Even the Swiss Financial Ombudsman are against the customer in Switzerland but getting a lawyer involved helped a lot
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