Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients • Hacker News Board

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#111

Post by heavenlyblue » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

washadjeffmad wrote: post #86

heavenlyblue wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing the devils advocate, and I think this is a pretty strong point against shrooms: while opioids cause harm, their harm is incredibly mechanical (it’s just addiction) and can be managed well. Shrooms play with your brain. We barely know how that works and quite frankly a lot of the research into managing the depressive episodes with shrooms may just be that you become more stupid and therefore less prone to thin…

Chronic pain does affect the brain, which we already know has long term physiological and neurodegenerative effects. However, we don't have any evidence that psilocybin causes any lasting harm, especially against cognition. Opiate harm is also not limited to addiction. Overdosing and liver toxicity from (abuse of) prescribed opiates is real and driven by their steep curve of tolerance. Opiate withdrawal for many can…

Yeah, and as I already mentioned the drawbacks of opioids are clearly known. I don’t understand what you’re arguing against here?

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#112

Post by treis » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #20

rich_sasha wrote: post #6

I don't understand the controversy. We know full well the natural world is full of substances with significant impact on our bodies. Many such substances can even on average be harmful, but when used correctly, they are beneficial. Opioids come to mind first and foremost. It's not controversial to give e.g. serious accident victims a shot of morphine. Why are investigations into medicinal use of shrooms or marijuana…

I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". This dogma has been used to enact countless bills of legislation in most rich countries, which in turn have encumbered the justice and police system, which in turn have put thousands upon thousands of people into to the correctional system for years. After all that busywork, lives destroyed and taxpayer money wasted, it is really…

>I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil".

Eh, I think this is too dismissive of some pretty deep ethical and philosophical considerations. Effectively they are giving drugs that alter ones perception of reality and then judging their effectiveness on the patients perspective. But since they alter their perception of reality it's tough to rely on patient reports.

Anecdotally speaking, there's a lot of people in this world that think drugs make their lives better when an objective observer would pretty strongly disagree. That raises a lot of difficult questions. Most notably, do we give someone a drug that will make their life worse but also make them think their life is better.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#113

Post by hourislate » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #6

I don't understand the controversy. We know full well the natural world is full of substances with significant impact on our bodies. Many such substances can even on average be harmful, but when used correctly, they are beneficial. Opioids come to mind first and foremost. It's not controversial to give e.g. serious accident victims a shot of morphine. Why are investigations into medicinal use of shrooms or marijuana…

There is multi-billion dollar industry to support. It's comprised of the Prison Industry, Police/Police Unions, Judicial System/Prosecutors/Administrators, etc.

As crime has fallen and society has become less violent, Politicians have to look for ways to keep the steady flow of Meat into the Prisons since they don't fill themselves and billions of dollars at stake, 10's of thousands of jobs, generous campaign donations, etc. So these Politicians have to make the door as wide as possible to keep the game going, Marijuana, psychedelics, etc, keep that door wide. Throwing kids in jail for being late, missing school, having a joint or prosecuting sick or dying patients who need help (that Morphine shot costs how much in the Hospital?).

It's a game being played on the American People and year after year they keep voting/electing the same people who are running the game.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#114

Post by quickthrowman » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

throwYAWZA123 wrote: post #11

xyzal wrote: post #2

Anecdote: I have suffered from anxiety since I can remember. I had the opportunity to take psilocybe a few times (always took about quarter of a dose than my trip-mates, out of fear of a bad trip, and most of the times had just subtle perceptual distortions), and the following days/weeks always seemed unusually serene.

Of similar background, I've expected to feel something but honestly felt nothing. Maybe a little hot on the cheeks. Reading about it more afterwards, seems regular taking of SSRIs may prevent the effects of shrooms. Did you take SSRIs or similar medicine at the time? Did you feel the same effect in the first time?

Psilocybin works if you take SSRI/SNRIs, LSD too. MDMA does not, and taking it while on an SSRI can cause serotonin syndrome.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#115

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

tsukurimashou wrote: post #10

xyzal wrote: post #2

Anecdote: I have suffered from anxiety since I can remember. I had the opportunity to take psilocybe a few times (always took about quarter of a dose than my trip-mates, out of fear of a bad trip, and most of the times had just subtle perceptual distortions), and the following days/weeks always seemed unusually serene.

I think psychedelics in general are great if you have anxiety / depression. I experienced the same thing with LSD as you, it really helps to change perspective and refocus on important things in your life

Was the new onsight strong and long term ? I'm often curious how a rewiring can last over time.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#116

Post by occamrazor » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #6

I don't understand the controversy. We know full well the natural world is full of substances with significant impact on our bodies. Many such substances can even on average be harmful, but when used correctly, they are beneficial. Opioids come to mind first and foremost. It's not controversial to give e.g. serious accident victims a shot of morphine. Why are investigations into medicinal use of shrooms or marijuana…

I suspect that one of the reasons is the experience with medical marijuana in some states, in particular California. There getting a marijuana prescription was so easy that dispensaries became a large distribution channel for recreational users.

This process provided arguments to opponents of medical marijuana, who claimed that it is just a “pretext for stoners”. As a supporter of both medical use of marijuana and derived substances, and of legalization of recreational use, I think that a clearer separation between the two would benefit all users and provide a better legal environment.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#117

Post by DennisP » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #112

fsloth wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". This dogma has been used to enact countless bills of legislation in most rich countries, which in turn have encumbered the justice and police system, which in turn have put thousands upon thousands of people into to the correctional system for years. After all that busywork, lives destroyed and taxpayer money wasted, it is really…

>I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". Eh, I think this is too dismissive of some pretty deep ethical and philosophical considerations. Effectively they are giving drugs that alter ones perception of reality and then judging their effectiveness on the patients perspective. But since they alter their perception of reality it's tough to rely on patient reports. Anecdota…

Did any of your anecdotal cases have terminal cancer? And did they take the drugs in a professional therapeutic context?

In a medical context, we can evaluate this as objectively as we evaluate painkillers or antidepressants. We can use our normal tests for anxiety and depression, run studies where we watch outcomes, etc. From what I've seen, the effects have been very positive for these patients.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#118

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

kortex wrote: post #100

vidarh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decriminalisation keeps many of the worst aspects of the war on drugs in place. Aspects that are damaging and immoral in that they cause far more harm than they prevent. Even drugs like heroin should be fully legalised. Subject to prescription, maybe. But the harm from a clean, consistent heroin supply is vastly lower than the harm caused by the manufacture and smuggling alone, and decriminalisation of possession doe…

As someone who's studied the topic quite heavily, here's my issue with no-holds-barred legalization (I consider "legal" to mean "can manufacture and distribute" in this regard, like tobacco). Drugs that couple very tightly to the VTA (brain's behavior-reward circuit) actually can lead to lasting changes after few or single exposures. This is amplified by rapid absorption routes - injection, insufflation and inhalatio…

> The main players here are heroin (DEA sched 1), meth (2), cocaine (2), GHB/Xyrem (3), some benzos (4), tobacco (legal), and analogs therein. It's hard to have a casual habit with these drugs, as they manipulate the brain's behavioral calculus itself.

Would caffeine and sugar also fall in this list?

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#119

Post by fsloth » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #112

fsloth wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". This dogma has been used to enact countless bills of legislation in most rich countries, which in turn have encumbered the justice and police system, which in turn have put thousands upon thousands of people into to the correctional system for years. After all that busywork, lives destroyed and taxpayer money wasted, it is really…

>I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". Eh, I think this is too dismissive of some pretty deep ethical and philosophical considerations. Effectively they are giving drugs that alter ones perception of reality and then judging their effectiveness on the patients perspective. But since they alter their perception of reality it's tough to rely on patient reports. Anecdota…

Effectively they are giving drugs that alter ones perception of reality

Like over the self painkillers do? Personally I don't see the philosophical difference in alleviating physical pain from alleviating psychological pain.

Of course, if the psychological pain is caused by a condition that can be fixed the fixing the condition itself is of course better. But in many cases of depression and anxiety there is no clear root cause that could be fixed.

Anecdotally speaking, there's a lot of people in this world that think drugs make their lives better when an objective observer would pretty strongly disagree.

Substance abuse and addiction are a problem, sure.

But that is entirely a different thing from providing substances that reduce anxiety and depression.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#120

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #78

varispeed wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that in many western cultures suffering is being regarded as a virtue and happiness as a great sin especially if achieved by using substances rather than through other actions. You can glaringly see that where people with chronic pain are denied access to medicinal cannabis, for example here in the UK. You can only receive treatment through a private medical clinic which costs hundreds and sometimes th…

Exactly. Medical protestantism: if it feels good, it must be bad for you. This is all over the diet industry.

Is that not that a generally true sentiment for dieting? Sugar, carbs, saturated fats, and excessive calorie consumption all taste and feel better than the alternatives, but are the cause of problems in 99% of people’s diets.