World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#111

Post by the_gastropod » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

balabaster wrote: post #72

dzolob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

Empathy is great, but unfortunately it's not a fix. There's only so much empathy we can have for the environment around us without giving away everything and getting nothing in return. Having empathy for the needs of your fellow human beings is still empathy, even if it comes at the cost of empathy for animals. Empathy for animals at the cost of empathy for your fellow humans is no more a solution than the other way…

That's a false dichotomy. Who's advocating for less empathy for humans?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#112

Post by the_gastropod » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

kempbellt wrote: post #102

throwaway2245 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegans don't face any such dilemma. The animal kingdom is quite clearly defined and vegans are pretty consistently defined as not consuming animals or animal products. If you wish to take a more extreme position that considers other forms of life (and almost nobody appears to), that's no longer just veganism: it's something more extreme.

> Vegans don't face any such dilemma. This is such hand-wavy bullshit. It's such a lazy response to OPs point... Are humans animals? If so, should we not consume the products that humans create, in order to achieve perfect veganism? And if people are not animals, and I'm feeling a bit hungry........? The computer or phone you used to post your comment is an animal product. Unless, yet again, we consider humans to be…

This is.... one of the more bizarre critiques of veganism I've ever seen.

You familiar with the concept of consent?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#113

Post by slothtrop » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

kaycebasques wrote: post #103

slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. No need for a blanket prejudiced statement like this.

I'll rescind it the day I see a vegan suggest there is such a thing as ethical meat/egg consumption. It will never happen.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#114

Post by netrus » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

kempbellt wrote: post #102

throwaway2245 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegans don't face any such dilemma. The animal kingdom is quite clearly defined and vegans are pretty consistently defined as not consuming animals or animal products. If you wish to take a more extreme position that considers other forms of life (and almost nobody appears to), that's no longer just veganism: it's something more extreme.

> Vegans don't face any such dilemma. This is such hand-wavy bullshit. It's such a lazy response to OPs point... Are humans animals? If so, should we not consume the products that humans create, in order to achieve perfect veganism? And if people are not animals, and I'm feeling a bit hungry........? The computer or phone you used to post your comment is an animal product. Unless, yet again, we consider humans to be…

That's such a strange way to argue. We use heuristics all the time. As I said elsewhere, the farmer is not a slave, that changes the equation. If all salads were made by slaves, beef might be the ethical superior choice. But it isn't. If you find someone who wants you do eat them: I guess that's fine? You cannot li ve 100% without harming animals - so it is cognitive dissonance to call for ending 95% of animal suffering (that, again, serves no good reason)?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#115

Post by grawprog » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

So, they're still culling fertilized eggs with males, they just do it before they hatch now. I guess it's a little more visually appealing to the public, but it literally changes nothing. The same number of chickens are still culled, they still get turned into animal feed.

Honestly, what difference does it really make if male chickens are shredded and ground up into feed pre or post hatching? It's the same result in the end.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#116

Post by jcampbell1 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #50

raspyberr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says the chicks are used for reptile food. And now basically the eggs will be used for reptile food instead.

The meat of 6 billions chicks was needed to feed domestic reptiles? Assuming they weight around 30 grams it's ~1,800,000 tons of meat That's a lot of meat, I didn't know people kept so many reptiles in their homes. p.s. 1,800,000 tons of meat could feed 180,000,000 people in Africa for a year (assuming an average in North and Central Africa of 10kg/person/year which is optimistic for some of the countries there). It'…

I think the reptile thing is bullshit. My understanding is that it is like bone meal... sent to a milling house and is blended with pig feed. Pigs eat chicken bones and chicken feed is blended with cow and pork bones. No cannibalism is allowed in the US.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#117

Post by tehjoker » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #115

So, they're still culling fertilized eggs with males, they just do it before they hatch now. I guess it's a little more visually appealing to the public, but it literally changes nothing. The same number of chickens are still culled, they still get turned into animal feed. Honestly, what difference does it really make if male chickens are shredded and ground up into feed pre or post hatching? It's the same result in…

It's a bit less horrific... the line between egg and birth is a clear line between brutalizing an organism capable of feeling pain and one that might not have reached that point (depending on how close to hatching it is).

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#118

Post by kaycebasques » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

zed88 wrote: post #81

dzolob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

The moral dilemma that vegans/vegetarians face is at what size we consider them sentient. Does the same apply to the micro-organism that vegans consume everyday on their salad? Or they are simply not sentient enough because we can't see them with naked eyes?

For me it's not about trying to nail down sentience but rather a basic heuristic about the creature's ability to feel pain. If I cut it or take its babies and it produces a response that indicates it doesn't like that, then I don't eat it. Fruits easily pass this test because the plant encourages us to take them (although I recognize that we've gamed that system and it's not like we're hunter gatherers anymore accidentally spreading seeds for the plant's benefit). Vegetables less so, but the response is nowhere near as visible as mammals and birds and fish and even bees. I recognize that pain is also a squishy, debatable concept but personally this is a situation where I don't think we'll have a rigorous intellectual framework in our lifetime so we just have to trust our intuitions; which is why there's so much disagreement (your intuition might be the opposite of mine).

I'll also mention however that I'm not solely vegan for ethical purposes so my conviction in veganism doesn't hinge on being perfect here. When I realized the health, environmental, and spiritual benefits of veganism, in addition to the ethical angle, it was a pretty easy decision to make.

But to your point, yes I do think we (everyone, not just vegans) are biased towards bigger creatures that we can see with the naked eye.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#119

Post by jcampbell1 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #16

I am by far not an animal rights activst and enjoy my daily portion of meat and dairy, but shreddering millions of male chicks always struck me als plain wrong, even by my carnivorian standards. This is progress that I fully support and I would not mind paying a little(!) extra to make sure that for my scrambled eggs no male chicken are shreddered.

FYI —- For every chicken you eat, one male chick is shredded. For every 300 eggs you eat, one male chick is shredded.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#120

Post by war1025 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #115

So, they're still culling fertilized eggs with males, they just do it before they hatch now. I guess it's a little more visually appealing to the public, but it literally changes nothing. The same number of chickens are still culled, they still get turned into animal feed. Honestly, what difference does it really make if male chickens are shredded and ground up into feed pre or post hatching? It's the same result in…

It's the whole abortion vs infanticide debate.

People almost universally feel that infanticide is wrong.

Abortion for whatever reason is easier for people to stomach.

Basically it's easier for people to feel good about preventing an embryo from turning into a cute little baby than it is for them to immediately kill that cute little baby once it's born.