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Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

3-16am.co.uk

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Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#111

Post by ADayOnEarth »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #3
keiferski wrote: post #2

Philosophy hasn’t stopped being relevant, if anything, it’s even more relevant today in a hyper-globalized world. What’s changed is that academics have become over-specialized, to the point where many outright deny the usefulness of entire academic fields. Scientists like Einstein or Humboldt were well versed in philosophy and religion, whereas today the “public intellectuals” often say philosophy is outdated or usel…

Agreed. Everyone already has a philosophy (and a religion), though many people don't know it, and some would deny it. The question isn't whether to have a philosophy but which philosophy to have. EDIT: since some have asked what I meant by "everyone already has...a religion," I meant that even something like atheism is a religion. It has a story of the origin of the universe, various accounts for why and how you shou…

You have a strange view of atheism.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#112

Post by free_rms »

acqq wrote: post #86
free_rms wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the "protestant work ethic". Most of the northeast is now either Catholic or Agnostic/Atheist, yet it persists, and all sorts of moral judgments are colored by it.

A big part of western world was never "protestant" and wouldn't say it has that "ethic." Nevertheless, even having that "ethic" doesn't make one a believer in supernatural "messiah" properties of a person called Jesus or in the afterlife or expected punishment or reward then or in the mere existence of some almighty supernatural entity with any capability which conflicts with scientific knowledge. To quote user keife…

It was an example. There are a thousand more.

We're trying to explain that coming from an entire culture and moral tradition means that you can decide God isn't real and you're still mostly flavored by that culture and moral tradition. The real-ness of God is just a little detail.

One can see this in the many analogues from specifically Christian traditions like repentance, confession and original sin to the current Social Justice movement. God not required.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#113

Post by syril »

leephillips wrote: post #22
keiferski wrote: post #2

Philosophy hasn’t stopped being relevant, if anything, it’s even more relevant today in a hyper-globalized world. What’s changed is that academics have become over-specialized, to the point where many outright deny the usefulness of entire academic fields. Scientists like Einstein or Humboldt were well versed in philosophy and religion, whereas today the “public intellectuals” often say philosophy is outdated or usel…

I can’t think of one serious “public intellectual” who says that “philosophy is outdated or useless” and I’d be curious to have a name or two.

Lawrence Krauss https://www.google.com/search?q=lawrence+krauss+philosophy

Though I'm not sure if he counts since "intellectual" might be a bit of a stretch for him.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#114

Post by ADayOnEarth »

kritiko wrote: post #24
randlet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not clear to me how that implies I have a religion. Being influenced, consciously or subconsciously does not mean I have a religion, but maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

Your question reminded me of this quote from David Foster Wallace's This is Water: Because here’s something else that’s weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to wor…

This is bs. I don't worship anything.

Where do I draw the "real meaning in life"? I don't think there is "a meaning in life", strictly speaking. I came to be because of laws of nature and biology, and keep living for a while, and then cease to exist.

I do think everyone can decide for themselves their personal "meaning of life". I would like humans to colonize other planets, and eventually other star systems. I think I have contributed to that goal by writing software that is used by a lot of people for information processing. I also like to be happy and enjoy life. Having a family, friends, and doing things I like with them helps achieve those goals.

Making an espresso is almost like a ritual, but I am not worshipping the bean, or electricty, water or the heat and pressure that makes it all work. All the steps are required to get coffee at the end, which I enjoy drinking. I am not worshipping the gods of wine and food when I drink and eat. I am not sending prayers to other car drivers when I am driving, or walking across the street. I am not praying for imaginary beings to keep my loved ones safe, or ask for divine help when they are sick. I admire people who have worked hard to achieve great things, but I do not worship them.

I do not know everything, and some things which I think I know are probably wrong. And yet there is still no need for religion.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#115

Post by spijdar »

leftyted wrote: post #106
ARandomerDude wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Everyone already has a philosophy (and a religion), though many people don't know it, and some would deny it. The question isn't whether to have a philosophy but which philosophy to have. EDIT: since some have asked what I meant by "everyone already has...a religion," I meant that even something like atheism is a religion. It has a story of the origin of the universe, various accounts for why and how you shou…

I understand what you're saying but I disagree: atheism is not a religion. The verb "is" does not mean "fulfills the same function as". Just because atheists have to answer the same questions as theists does not make atheism a religion. If you want a word to describe what atheism and religion have in common, I'd go with "spirituality". Not in the sense of "burning incense" or "believing in ghosts" but rather in the s…

I'd offer this idea in return -- religion may be the collective, social expression of individual spirituality, usually fuzzy and generalized beyond an individual's own specific beliefs in order to promote social harmony and cohesion.

Just as some people have "religious" beliefs that are very eclectic and isolated from organized religion, a sort of personal spirituality, I think there are atheists with particular and non-social views.

I also think many atheists, sharing similar "spirituality", find a similar kind of comfort in "communing" with other "believers", and socially expressing their beliefs with other "believers". Regardless of the specifics of said spirituality, I believe we do see some commonalities between "theists and atheists".

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#116

Post by sreque »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #3
keiferski wrote: post #2

Philosophy hasn’t stopped being relevant, if anything, it’s even more relevant today in a hyper-globalized world. What’s changed is that academics have become over-specialized, to the point where many outright deny the usefulness of entire academic fields. Scientists like Einstein or Humboldt were well versed in philosophy and religion, whereas today the “public intellectuals” often say philosophy is outdated or usel…

Agreed. Everyone already has a philosophy (and a religion), though many people don't know it, and some would deny it. The question isn't whether to have a philosophy but which philosophy to have. EDIT: since some have asked what I meant by "everyone already has...a religion," I meant that even something like atheism is a religion. It has a story of the origin of the universe, various accounts for why and how you shou…

Spot on about atheism. If any belief system is not a religion it would be agnosticism; atheism is as much a religion as any other.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#117

Post by eivarv »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #3
keiferski wrote: post #2

Philosophy hasn’t stopped being relevant, if anything, it’s even more relevant today in a hyper-globalized world. What’s changed is that academics have become over-specialized, to the point where many outright deny the usefulness of entire academic fields. Scientists like Einstein or Humboldt were well versed in philosophy and religion, whereas today the “public intellectuals” often say philosophy is outdated or usel…

Agreed. Everyone already has a philosophy (and a religion), though many people don't know it, and some would deny it. The question isn't whether to have a philosophy but which philosophy to have. EDIT: since some have asked what I meant by "everyone already has...a religion," I meant that even something like atheism is a religion. It has a story of the origin of the universe, various accounts for why and how you shou…

You can't be serious.

Actual religions have sets of ideas (rules, creation-myths, alternative epistemologies, etc.), whereas atheism has none. The term literally means "without god(s)" (which was a defining feature of religions by those who coined the term).

It is an absence of belief (at least in the way the term is commonly used; There are "atheistic religions" in the sense that they don't have a deity).

Atheism is to religion as being silent is to speaking – and you're essentially claiming it's just another way of speaking.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#118

Post by thisiszilff »

eivarv wrote: post #117
ARandomerDude wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Everyone already has a philosophy (and a religion), though many people don't know it, and some would deny it. The question isn't whether to have a philosophy but which philosophy to have. EDIT: since some have asked what I meant by "everyone already has...a religion," I meant that even something like atheism is a religion. It has a story of the origin of the universe, various accounts for why and how you shou…

You can't be serious. Actual religions have sets of ideas (rules, creation-myths, alternative epistemologies, etc.), whereas atheism has none. The term literally means "without god(s)" (which was a defining feature of religions by those who coined the term). It is an absence of belief (at least in the way the term is commonly used; There are "atheistic religions" in the sense that they don't have a deity). Atheism is…

The charitable interpretation is that most people -- even atheists -- will have a belief system that is functionally equivalent to a religion.

> Atheism is to religion as being silent is to speaking – and you're essentially claiming it's just another way of speaking.

Another way of saying it is that religions (as we know them) are answers to questions, you can get rid of those answers, disagree with them, etc. but the questions will remain and you will implicitly provide answers to them. Those answers will constitute what your religion is -- albeit one might not examine their answers in any detail.

Re: Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away

#120

Post by msla »

kritiko wrote: post #24
randlet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not clear to me how that implies I have a religion. Being influenced, consciously or subconsciously does not mean I have a religion, but maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

Your question reminded me of this quote from David Foster Wallace's This is Water: Because here’s something else that’s weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to wor…

Meaningless words unless you define the religion out of religion, which is hugely disrespectful to both the religious and the irreligious: You can take any philosophy and insist it's a religion, but in doing so you destroy the special place religion holds in the minds of the faithful, and you call atheists charlatans and fools for no legitimate reason.
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