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Scala 3.0.0-M1

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Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#111

Post by edem »

fnord123 wrote: post #34
blackoil wrote: post #18

In my company (10k+ devs) Scala seems to be losing steam. All the enthusiasts have moved to Go/Rust, while the pragmatics are staying in (moving back) in Java. No new major project is being built in Scala. Does anyone share this experience?

Same experience here. JDK11 and beyond added some more enthusiasm to base Java. If Loom lands I think a lot of people will also lose interest in Kotlin as well (because AIUI a big draw for Kotlin is the async story).

I completely disagree. The best things in Kotlin has nothing to do with coroutines, it is the extension functions and the soon-to-be released typeclasses (multiple receivers). Java is lagging behind, while Kotlin gets pragmatic and useful features very frequently.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#112

Post by edem »

osdev wrote: post #96

The Scala language is great but the ecosystem sacrifices simplicity for pure FP. Scala has always suffered from complexity problems due to libraries. For example, using Http/JSON/Database libraries have always been a lot harder than they need to be due to a die hard approach to pure FP. Scala 3 looks pretty good, but I just can NOT see myself using Scala again, after having worked with it for 4-5 years at work and on…

Same here. Kotlin is a pragmatic language and it is a much better fit for the "Turbo Java" role that Scala originally wanted to do.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#113

Post by x87678r »

Scala can be nice but up until now compilation is way too slow to live with. Hopefully this will make it more palatable, but I've moved to Kotlin already.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#114

Post by hocuspocus »

osdev wrote: post #96

The Scala language is great but the ecosystem sacrifices simplicity for pure FP. Scala has always suffered from complexity problems due to libraries. For example, using Http/JSON/Database libraries have always been a lot harder than they need to be due to a die hard approach to pure FP. Scala 3 looks pretty good, but I just can NOT see myself using Scala again, after having worked with it for 4-5 years at work and on…

> For example, using Http/JSON/Database libraries have always been a lot harder than they need to be due to a die hard approach to pure FP.

Hu? There are plenty of alternatives to the pure FP ecosystem.

HTTP: Dispatch, Requests-Scala, literally any Java client if that's still too FP for you

JSON: uPickle, Play JSON, or simply Jackson

DB: ScalikeJDBC. Quill and Slick do a lot more but are not particularly die-hard FP either.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#115

Post by esarbe »

x87678r wrote: post #113

Scala can be nice but up until now compilation is way too slow to live with. Hopefully this will make it more palatable, but I've moved to Kotlin already.

I've been working with Scala for 7 years now. Compilation speeds have been getting better throughout the 2.12.x/2.13.x cycles. Compilation speeds for Scala 3 are looking very good too.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#116

Post by valenterry »

dwijnand wrote: post #108
scns wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would call it pipe operator, like it's called in many (Elm, Elixir, F#, OCaml) other languages that have it, people would understand you faster IMHO. It is even discussed for inclusion into JavaScript.

https://www.scala-lang.org/api/current/scala/util/ChainingOp...

Nice I didn't know that! I still like to add |> on top of it.

"foo |> bar |> baz" just visually parses easier than "foo pipe bar pipe baz"

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#117

Post by fnord123 »

edem wrote: post #111
fnord123 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience here. JDK11 and beyond added some more enthusiasm to base Java. If Loom lands I think a lot of people will also lose interest in Kotlin as well (because AIUI a big draw for Kotlin is the async story).

I completely disagree. The best things in Kotlin has nothing to do with coroutines, it is the extension functions and the soon-to-be released typeclasses (multiple receivers). Java is lagging behind, while Kotlin gets pragmatic and useful features very frequently.

I have some friends/colleagues who use kotlin in personal projects and they enjoy it. But I've never heard them talk about those features. And they certainly aren't enjoying it now because of soon-to-be-released features.

But I am interested to learn more. Do you know any good resources?

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#118

Post by TeeWEE »

aliakhtar wrote: post #27
TeeWEE wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me scala's feature set is absurdly big and there are always 10 ways todo things. Look at the spec of Scala. Its 200 pages long. That's insane. I'd rather use Kotlin.

This is like saying, airplanes are too complex. There are so many knobs and buttons. I'd rather just walk or ride a bike everywhere. Scala is a very powerful, very expressive language. There are some features which you can just choose to leave out. If you do, you end up with a very clean, concise, and powerful language that makes you really productive. I've literally had moments where I made my algorithm 5x faster ju…

Its more like saying: I need to cut some paper ( i need to program): Swiss army knifes (scala) are too complex, I just need a pair of pair of scissors (lisp / other languages).

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#119

Post by blandflakes »

kitd wrote: post #75
blackoil wrote: post #18

In my company (10k+ devs) Scala seems to be losing steam. All the enthusiasts have moved to Go/Rust, while the pragmatics are staying in (moving back) in Java. No new major project is being built in Scala. Does anyone share this experience?

Scala was the first serious attempt to break Java's stranglehold on the JVM that made any impact. A lot of people got very excited by it. But then Kotlin, Ceylon, Clojure and others started to steal it's thunder and now it's just "one of the pack". In fact, I'd say Java itself has stolen back from all those other languages to a large extent, with its language enhancements since v8.

With the exception of Ceylon (because it's basically dead), there's actually a really nice gradient on the JVM these days:

Clojure is a nice, expressive, dynamic language that is really great for messing with arbitrarily-shaped data.

Java is a workhorse language that has been powering businesses small and large for decades.

Kotlin is a modern spin on Java, and the degree to which they share functionality (with differing or identical semantics) over time will be interesting.

And then Scala exists for all your meta-type-wankery needs.

It seems natural that Kotlin/Java would be most popular over time, with Clojure and Scala hanging out with small amounts of market share.

Re: Scala 3.0.0-M1

#120

Post by aliakhtar »

TeeWEE wrote: post #118
aliakhtar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying, airplanes are too complex. There are so many knobs and buttons. I'd rather just walk or ride a bike everywhere. Scala is a very powerful, very expressive language. There are some features which you can just choose to leave out. If you do, you end up with a very clean, concise, and powerful language that makes you really productive. I've literally had moments where I made my algorithm 5x faster ju…

Its more like saying: I need to cut some paper ( i need to program): Swiss army knifes (scala) are too complex, I just need a pair of pair of scissors (lisp / other languages).

Scala really isn’t that complex though. It’s actually pretty intuitive.

You CAN write bad and hairy scala code just like you can in any language. But that doesn’t mean the language is to blame.

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