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Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

numfocus.org

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Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#111

Post by ciarannolan »

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20
GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

> [...] but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

I don't like this personal attack and I feel less safe on this board because of it. Will someone go after this poster on my behalf please?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#112

Post by marcinzm »

GiorgioG wrote: post #46
dylan604 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too dislike code of conduct type of stuff, but more along the reasoning you mentioned. I dislike that they are even needed in the first place. The fact that you have to be told to not belittle, harass, abuse, etc another user/participant/person is just difficult to understand.

It shouldn't be that hard to to follow the "Don't be an asshole" rule, unfortunately for the rest of us, 0.001% can't figure out how to get along with other humans. I think CoCs just become a new tool for a different subset of assholes to abuse. Yes it does suck for those who have a legitimate issue. I've yet to see how CoCs solve that problem in practice.

As I see it, a CoC gives good leadership a way to punish people who are assholes without causing too much of a backlash. Without it people would argue about fair process, not knowing it was wrong, cultural differences, etc, etc. It's hard to enforce a don't be an asshole rule when you mostly have soft power at your disposal. Of course, it also gives bad leadership a tool with which to punish people without causing too much backlash.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#113

Post by harlanji »

smeeth wrote: post #45

Ok, I'm not heavily steeped in this, but at first glance this seems like total bullshit. Note that the original complaint was both 1) that the code of conduct people were being, well, total assholes, and 2) that the complaints were so obviously ridiculous that the entire exercise seemed like it could only be a power trip for those involved. The apology addressed neither. They apologized for being unclear about what s…

At very least the action is something to point to, and maintain reputation. Almost 5 years ago a hostile employer did this to me and since then most of my huge former network built over 15+ years have stopped associating with me and are starting to assume I’m mentally ill and hung up on it, but in truth I simply can’t work anymore due to the reference check process having been compromised and former associates lacking support.

I’m now forced to go through legal channels to clear my name. If I can get an acknowledgement of their mistake then life will get much easier to explain. Too bad about the content, non-apology, but I’d not undetestimate the act alone.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#114

Post by joshstrange »

iaw wrote: post #109
joshstrange wrote: post #96

Here are the people responsible who are too cowardly to sign their real names: Leah Silen, Executive Director leah@numfocus.org +1 (512) 831-2870 or +1 (972) 896-3688 Andy Terrel, President andy@numfocus.org Nicole Foster, Executive Operations Administrator nicole@numfocus.org Walker Chabbott, Communications & Marketing Manager walker@numfocus.org I find it disgraceful how mealy-mouthed their response was, how they c…

Please don't dox people in a charged thread like this. There is no point in putting their phone number or emails here.

It's not doxing if it's public info: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#115

Post by PragmaticPulp »

smeeth wrote: post #45

Ok, I'm not heavily steeped in this, but at first glance this seems like total bullshit. Note that the original complaint was both 1) that the code of conduct people were being, well, total assholes, and 2) that the complaints were so obviously ridiculous that the entire exercise seemed like it could only be a power trip for those involved. The apology addressed neither. They apologized for being unclear about what s…

The apology is so vague and PR-washed that it’s nearly impossible to draw any conclusions.

At this point, they won’t even acknowledge that the initial accusations were unreasonable. In fact, it appears they’ve simply transferred the investigation up a level to the board of directors so it can continue.

A real apology would have acknowledged that they mishandled the situation and taken steps to resolve it as fast as possible. This feels more like an attempt to justify their actions, move the goal posts about what they did wrong, and move the investigation back behind closed doors within NumFOCUS.

Please just publicly acknowledge that this should have been resolved within a day or two by absolving Jeremey of wrongdoing, and without this never ending inquisition that now involves even more and higher-ranking individuals at NumFOCUS.

This is such a simple issue that never should have gone this far.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#116

Post by geofft »

robjan wrote: post #104
geofft wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, how is saying that someone is "_dramatically_ privileged" an attack? It's a judgment-neutral observation. When I say that sshd runs a privileged process, I don't mean to say that sshd is morally bad (or whatever), just that it needs to be more careful than less-privileged code and that it can do things more easily than less-privileged code can. It's the same meaning of "privileged" here. (And yes, you could bring…

You can observe whether sshd is running a privileged process because you have all of the information available to make that judgement. You can't observe whether a random person is privileged because it's relative and related to your opinion and biases.

True, but then it's at most a false claim. It's still not an attack. If I say ping is privileged and you say you're on a distro with unprivileged ping, I haven't in any way denounced ping.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#117

Post by csours »

Benjmhart wrote: post #53
rdtsc wrote: post #17

An interesting thing to think about is if they would apologize if this wasn't published in a blog and discussed online. Let's say Jeremy just walked away quietly in disgust and didn't say anything publicly. What would have they done? I would guess that they would have chucked it under "We did a great job enforcing the code of conduct. Problem solved".

Well, if nobody tells you you're being a shit, humans rarely realize it on their own, squeaky wheels get the grease.

This might be going too far, but Type A personalities don't realize they're being shits. This allows them to get things done, as they don't care very much about what other people think; but sometimes it means that they deliver solutions/products without much empathy for the end users and the individual contributors who made it.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#118

Post by dsq »

Topgamer7 wrote: post #24
jf- wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NumFOCUS found I violated their Code of Conduct (CoC) at JupyterCon because my talk was not “kind”, because I said Joel Grus was “wrong” regarding his opinion that Jupyter Notebook is not a good software development environment Wow.

Excuse me sir, you've committed a thought crime for not following propaganda guidelines on independent thought and expression.

You have violated the CoC by presuming to use the honorific "sir", thus promoting gender opression!

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#120

Post by StillBored »

torstenvl wrote: post #33
eckza wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably going to go down with you; but can you elaborate on that a little?

I'm not the OP but: - There is no presumption of innocence. - There are no formal rights of an accused. - There is no clear delineation of what constitutes a violation. - There is no right to confront those making an allegation. - There are no negative consequences for making a false allegation. - All of which leads to a system whereby people are subjected to ostracism and official censure for violating unwritten rul…

A lot of them don't seem to have a "warning" phase either. In a lot of cases I'm guessing the harasser isn't really aware that someone is feeling harassed.

Plus, in many cases they don't get applied equally anyway, the project leader is going to get handled a lot differently than a random contributor. AKA one gets sent to etiquette school, the other gets banned from the conference and mailing list.

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