Are we losing our ability to remember? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#111

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

vsareto wrote: post #36

shawxe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of reading this, over two thousand years later, translated into a different language, presumably by someone who is, even after all this time, still able to read the original--it's almost like writing helps us remember, as a species, in ways that would have otherwise been almost completely impossible.

If there's one thing technology is good at disrupting, it's tradition

I'd say the opposite. The fact that a species memory has been created by the written word and the printing press means that nothing ever dies, and initial mistakes and the achievement of local maxima can be preserved forever. The tyranny of Aristotle over the Dark Ages was no joke.

Natural senility as an individual is probably no more than the accumulation of calcified habits, rather than completely biological - the ability to abandon old, wrong knowledge is a sign of youth and indispensable to the learning process. The written word has enabled us to achieve senility as a species.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#112

Post by bwanab » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

kps wrote: post #89

wenc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For those who haven't come across this factoid, it actually wasn't Plato, but Socrates who famously lamented the harmful effects of writing on memory and teaching. Socrates was a big fan of knowledge transmission through dialogue and discourse. Socrates never wrote anything down, but Plato did, so ironically now we know about Socrates' disdain of writing through Plato's writings (in this case, the Phaedrus). Quo…

It's really not obvious how much of ‘Socrates’ in Plato is actually Socrates and how much is Plato trading on Socrates' name.

Socrates being probably the most quoted person of all time who never wrote anything (giving Homer the benefit of doubt since he did leave a couple of epic poems).

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#113

Post by wenc » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

kps wrote: post #89

wenc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For those who haven't come across this factoid, it actually wasn't Plato, but Socrates who famously lamented the harmful effects of writing on memory and teaching. Socrates was a big fan of knowledge transmission through dialogue and discourse. Socrates never wrote anything down, but Plato did, so ironically now we know about Socrates' disdain of writing through Plato's writings (in this case, the Phaedrus). Quo…

It's really not obvious how much of ‘Socrates’ in Plato is actually Socrates and how much is Plato trading on Socrates' name.

True, what Socrates is purported to have said in the Phaedrus could well be a concoction of Plato's -- we'll never know for sure.

However we do know at least by virtue of the existence of the Phadrus that Plato himself did not subscribe to the position attributed to Socrates in the Phaedrus.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#114

Post by pbowyer » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #71

spicymaki wrote: post #32

I feel that in general we are consuming a lot more information than we really need. I am not sure the human brain was evolved to handle a large amount of information that does not have any physical references. I find myself not only forgetting myriad facts and figures, but also mixing up information or having false memories. Many of my memories have nothing to anchor on. I think the trend today is to prime the brain…

I've noticed a few ways in which this overload of information manifests. You've got the people who consume a lot of "information" yet can't make much sense of it, or at least in a way that lines up to shared reality. I'd say this represents the average person. The main coping mechanism for these people is to consume information as entertainment and otherwise not think about what they're taking in. Otherwise, they mig…

Hello from another of the last archetype.

It's a blessing and a curse. And one I find very few careers favour.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#115

Post by dunce2020 » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

warkdarrior wrote: post #107

dunce2020 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know any of the definitions, grammar rules of English yet I'm still able to effectively communicate with and understand others.

If you are a native speaker of English, you learned those rules over your whole childhood, by example instead of being explicitly taught the rules.

Agreed - I learned examples, not rules.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#116

Post by ravi-delia » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #74

sixdimensional wrote: post #61

I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”. Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains. We evolve with technology, and it evolves with…

For me personally, the internet has made my brain better at remembering associations between ideas, but worse at free-recall of factual information. It's like my mind got better at indexing at the expense of storage.

That's actually the perfect explanation. Even studying cognitive science I'm always amazed at how analogous the brain is to a computer.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#117

Post by bluefirex » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

Liquix wrote: post #91

sixdimensional wrote: post #61

I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”. Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains. We evolve with technology, and it evolves with…

Doug Engelbart, a pioneer of the personal computer, would love your point about computers being extensions of our brains. His mission (in the 1950s!) was to find a way to 'augment human intellect' through technology, much like the biologist augments their eyesight through the microscope. The mind blowing part is that they didn't have anything to go off (or XEROX to copy) - imagine conceptualizing the personal compute…

"[...] it's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds." - Steve Jobs

https://youtu.be/ob_GX50Za6c

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#118

Post by blawson » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

sixdimensional wrote: post #61

I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”. Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains. We evolve with technology, and it evolves with…

Steve Jobs had a video on this, about computers being bicycles for our minds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTRzYjoZhIY

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#119

Post by xmprt » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #108

kstenerud wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40 years ago it would have been: * How often did you read articles in newspapers this week? * What was the last article before the last article that you read? * What is the last newspaper article that you read, top to bottom? Or, for tech people: * How often did you read manpages this week? * What was the last manpage before the last manpage that you read? * What is the last manpage that you read, top to bottom? We r…

There's are two serious differences between 40 years ago and now. 1) I can look up a thing I can't remember (or don't know) both specifically and immediately. 40 years ago this might have taken a week and an inter-library loan. I'd certainly be sure to remember what I'd learned afterwards. And, 2) Things that I once looked up can be silently changed or removed the next time I try to look them up. I don't think it's u…

Why is it important to remember everything that you've read especially in this day and age? 90% of stuff you Google is just to help you get a small task done or learn something that seemed important in the moment. Another 9% might be something you write down in a notebook to look back at later. Very few things are worth actively keeping track of in your mind and those are usually fundamental building blocks of a new mental model.

The brain is for thinking, not for remembering.

Re: Are we losing our ability to remember?

#120

Post by codecutter » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #74

sixdimensional wrote: post #61

I once took a class in college, “Cars and Culture”. I never forgot a line from that class - that “cars provided an extension of our legs”. Ever since then, I have told many people and thought to myself many times, that tools, take Google for instance (search and indexing), knowledge management systems (Wiki and other techniques) - these are all extensions of our brains. We evolve with technology, and it evolves with…

For me personally, the internet has made my brain better at remembering associations between ideas, but worse at free-recall of factual information. It's like my mind got better at indexing at the expense of storage.

My mind got better at indexing at the expense of storage >> Well said. I am going to use your quote :) (so that it moves to my long-term memory.) Thank you.