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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#111

Post by labster »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #110
andreilys wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

>> It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status > Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”. Isn't that pretty much the definition of caste-based discrimination?

Only if the social status is inherited, like people of color in the United States.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#112

Post by lowercasteguy »

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'.

Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against the concept of caste-by-birth. Abrahamic religions are also devoid of the concept of caste.

So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved. Upper caste hindus don't probe the caste of a person if they hear a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist name because they know that it won't exist.

Because of how easy it is to give up caste, lower castes have been doing religious conversions in India in large numbers. The so called upper caste , only make up 30% of Hindu population and if all lower castes were to convert then Hinduism would become a minority in India. To prevent this mass exodus, various states of India have been coming up with anti-conversion laws which make it really hard for people to convert. Though I really don't understand why lower caste dalits in the US continue to stay Hindu, when they could just change their religion and avoid the whole caste discussion altogether.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#113

Post by dzhVAaT8A3Sg »

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Some of what you are saying is true but I had a good experience with Indians maybe because I knew how to react to it. But Indians are extremely diverse. My wife is Brahmin, and I am white, and I've been around Brahmins as a result. I have found Brahmins who come to the US often are not particularly religious but still practice some of old customs. They complain about a lot of Brahmin hate in India and like escaping from it in the US. There are some subtleties though.

* Indians from India like old ways of addressing superiors. They appreciate if you call a manager Sir. Address him as Dear Sir.

* Religious Brahmins would not tolerate being around a Dalit because it will adversely effect their purity. There are terms for all this. Aversion to Dalits is deeper than culture, it's a religious belief. This might even be protected by religious freedom. Less religious ones I don't think care as much. Very religious Brahmins in general do not get high paying jobs and do not have a lot of power but also would hold the most discriminatory views.

* Indians have a culture of going the extra mile at work. So I think in general they don't appreciate the American view of work.

* Indians from India prefer being around other Indians but I think they also don't understand Americans well and think the American work environment is strange.

* There are a lot of horrible things that happen in India and it's not just one group that does it. There isn't really any one universally accepted victim group there. There are billionaire Dalits.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#114

Post by bruceb »

me551ah wrote: post #78
blinkingled wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand how marriage is anything but a justifiably personal preference. Jobs are a different story - you can't prefer one race/ethnicity/caste over the other for obvious reasons. Marriage on the other hand is very personal - it would be ridiculous to expect people to marry into other races/castes/ethnicities as the norm - it never happens that way in any part of the world no matter how advanced - people…

The problem with Indian castes being that caste ends up triumphing over personal preference. I personally know a couple of friends who were deeply in love but couldn't marry each other due to caste constraints enforced by their families. And it wasn't an economic issue either. The guy in question lives in SF and the girl was married off to some poor bloke from her caste.

Seems like an economic issue. Had she pure economic independence, could have done what she liked.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#115

Post by thewarrior »

john_max_1 wrote: post #85
thewarrior wrote: post #24

There has been a lot of outrage over the past week in India over the rape of a lower caste woman by upper castes. The police sided with the culprits and forced the family to cremate the victim to destroy evidence. This is a common tactic by upper castes to spread terror and keep the lower castes in line. Goes to show how entrenched the system is especially outside the big cities.

FWIW, There were thee more incidents and in all the cases lower caste girl was raped by Muslim guys. So, much for unnecessary giving caste/communal angle to a case of corruption and power.

Caste exists among some Muslims too. Lower caste women bear the brunt of it because of their low social status. So no its not irrelevant. They suffer so much precisely because they are lower caste even in your examples.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#116

Post by lowercasteguy »

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against the concept of caste-by-birth. Abrahamic religions are also devoid of the concept of caste.

So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved. Upper caste hindus don't probe the caste of a person if they hear a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist name because they know that it won't exist.

Because of how easy it is to give up caste, lower castes have been doing religious conversions in India in large numbers. The so called upper caste , only make up 30% of Hindu population and if all lower castes were to convert then Hinduism would become a minority in India. To prevent this mass exodus, various states of India have been coming up with anti-conversion laws which make it really hard for people to convert. Though I really don't understand why lower caste dalits in the US continue to stay Hindu, when they could just change their religion and avoid the whole caste discussion altogether.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#117

Post by drieddust »

dilippkumar wrote: post #68

From Cynthia Tablot’s Precolonial India in Practice[0] > One peculiarity of Andhra society is that many of the leading warrior families made no pretensions to ksatriya status but instead proudly proclaimed their descent from the creator Bramha’s feet. This is an allusion to the famous origin myth first found in the Rig Veda wherein the four varnas are said to have originated from different portions of the body of Pur…

Edit: I would truly appreciate a discourse. Simple downvoting provides no feedback.

India suffers from this colonial system and unfortunately media takes every single opportunity. Like recent rape cases. Only case with victim from lower class and culprits from higher class is getting all the media attention.

I am not saying it's unnecessary but having a dialog requires honest intentions. Just like BLM these media hype cases don't help.

In my 20 years of experience I have seen caste discrimination in villages but not in modern offices. People from all creed and caste work together and progress together.

As far as marriages are concerned , how many Europeans marry outside their social class? I would guess not many.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#118

Post by Barrin92 »

edoceo wrote: post #88
throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

So many ethnic stereotypes, personal samples only (I doubt this person kept diligent notes) then classified as truth. Sad to read when the topic is ethnic bias.

it's definitely more than an anecdote, the NYT ran a piece about it recently. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/opinion/caste-cisco-india...)

There's entire ecosystem of chat groups of higher-caste Indians in American firms who systematically hire based on it and even go as far as to expose others.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#119

Post by gen220 »

dilippkumar wrote: post #68

From Cynthia Tablot’s Precolonial India in Practice[0] > One peculiarity of Andhra society is that many of the leading warrior families made no pretensions to ksatriya status but instead proudly proclaimed their descent from the creator Bramha’s feet. This is an allusion to the famous origin myth first found in the Rig Veda wherein the four varnas are said to have originated from different portions of the body of Pur…

As you seem knowledgeable in this subject, are there any books you’d recommend that provide something closer to a “Swiss neutral” take, that captures more of the nuance found lacking here?

I have Indian heritage but it’s not a topic that my relatives enjoy talking about, and I have also observed the myopia you note, in the most readily-available material on the subject. I’d love to read something more scholarly and impassive that you might recommend.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#120

Post by gautamdivgi »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #2

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

fwiw - she shouldn't have said that or even thought that way. But I'm not sure why she was "trying to figure out his caste". The last name is a dead giveaway most of the times. Quite a few Indian last names and their castes are documented in wikipedia.
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