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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

tutanota.com

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#111

Post by mcguire »

gumby wrote: post #5

I’m pretty sure Equifax et al aggregate this info as well (well perhaps not yet your trash-sorting) such as arrest records and probably social media activity as an option, or future option, to swizzle into credit rating.

"The Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) dates all the way back to 1970 in its original form, and exists to protect consumer rights when it comes to “accuracy, fairness, and privacy” of credit information. According to the FCRA, as a consumer, you have the right to: Be told if information in your credit report has been used against you. Know what’s in your credit report. Access your credit score. Dispute incorrect or incomplete information. Have incorrect or incomplete information resolved by the credit bureaus. Have outdated, negative information withheld from your report. Limit who can access your file. Give consent to your report being given to employers. Limit pre-screened credit and insurance offers sent to you. Seek damages from violators. Be given additional protections if you’re the victim of identity theft or are on active military duty.

"States may have additional consumer reporting laws that extend beyond what the FCRA provides."

(https://www.lexingtonlaw.com/blog/credit-101/does-the-govern...)

See also https://www.usa.gov/credit-reports

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#112

Post by mcguire »

gumby wrote: post #34
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your credit rating doesn't affect your ability to go to a concert or buy an airline ticket.

Well, the explicitly obscure social credit system “terrorism watch list” keeps you from flying with (almost) no recourse. I’m pretty sure it will be privatized. And it’s only a matter of time before your arrest record will affect your ability to attend a concert or sporting event — this is already the case in the UK.

And it's been the subject of much criticism, such as yours, although none have really stuck.

I wonder if the same can be said within China?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#113

Post by wombatmobile »

mcguire wrote: post #106

" The idea behind this is understandable: As social networks decline and anonymity in cities rises, the social pressure to behave in an acceptable way declines as well. China now replaces this social pressure with the Social Credit System so that people even when living anonymously in any city behave in an acceptable way. " Holy sh*t. That's some straight up Orwellian thought, there.

Contrast that with these words:

I pledge Allegiance to the flag

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

one nation under God, indivisible,

with Liberty and Justice for all.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#114

Post by Proven »

nendroid wrote: post #92
bamboozled wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chinas' goal is to build a happy society that is more affluent and happy than the US but has less freedoms." It seems this is the case if you're Han Chinese only.

The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas. Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted. In…

> The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas.

That's nonsense. The amount of force that state can apply in the Americas barely registers. Look at the homeless in California, not to mention other examples.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#115

Post by chrischen »

mcguire wrote: post #106

" The idea behind this is understandable: As social networks decline and anonymity in cities rises, the social pressure to behave in an acceptable way declines as well. China now replaces this social pressure with the Social Credit System so that people even when living anonymously in any city behave in an acceptable way. " Holy sh*t. That's some straight up Orwellian thought, there.

Could you elaborate?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#116

Post by chrischen »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

The powerful in any society seek that. Some don't even realize it. What do you think the oft-sought "passive income" comes from. That's when your wealth reaches a point where you can use it to derive more wealth off of others' work.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#117

Post by chrischen »

wombatmobile wrote: post #97
nendroid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? You're completely right. The purpose of such a system shall be used to maintain power but that's not the sole purpose of such a system. More than just benefiting the ruling class China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way. In order to do this their policies must benefit the working class as well as it…

> China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way Citation?

I don't think you need a citation for something that every country most likely aspires towards.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#118

Post by chrischen »

wmeredith wrote: post #80
vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

I may not care for Experian et al., but I do like that they can't send me and my family to a concentration camp to be re-educated. The difference between the government and the private sector, is the government has a monopoly on violence.

They won't need to do that. They can just ruin your credit because of your skin color (based on models influenced by systematic racism). That's if you haven't been shot or harassed by cops trained to bias against people like you.

We've got our own problems that need to be fixed before we start governing the Chinese people without representation. They certainly have a lot of tea in China to dump into the waters.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#119

Post by chrischen »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9
vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.

Just because the method of oppression is different doesn't mean we are free from the same class of oppression.

Credit is almost a necessity in American life, even if it is theoretically possible to buy a house paid in cash up-front. Doing so would be stupid because of opportunity costs on that cash.

Apple now offers 0% interest financing. This isn't really a matter of using credit / paying in cash as it is literally free money that a class of people who may not have credit will not have access to.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#120

Post by droobles »

wombatmobile wrote: post #113
mcguire wrote: post #106

" The idea behind this is understandable: As social networks decline and anonymity in cities rises, the social pressure to behave in an acceptable way declines as well. China now replaces this social pressure with the Social Credit System so that people even when living anonymously in any city behave in an acceptable way. " Holy sh*t. That's some straight up Orwellian thought, there.

Contrast that with these words: I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Pretty stark contrast...
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