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US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

theguardian.com

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Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#111

Post by GordonS »

dfsegoat wrote: post #85
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #2

I'm kind of over the whole "Look, we killed someone far, far, far away for dubious reasons with NEW technology" articles. These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form.

> These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form. Rest assured, there are people who wake up every single day plotting how they can kill Americans or Westerners, or training to do so. This may be the West / USA's fault - but it's where we find ourselves, regardless. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_St...

Given the many articles about new and exciting ways to kill brown people from halfway across the world at the touch of a button, I'd wager there are just as many Americans who wake up every single day plotting how they can sell their newest killing machines to the US gov in the name of stopping terrorism etc.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#112

Post by vangelis »

rayiner wrote: post #42
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #2

I'm kind of over the whole "Look, we killed someone far, far, far away for dubious reasons with NEW technology" articles. These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form.

They’re certainly bothering people and threatening peoples’ freedom. Thanks to the export of fundamentalist Islam from certain countries, my home country of Bangladesh is a more dangerous place today then when we left 30 years ago. (And it was under a military dictatorship then!) Unsurprisingly, we take harsh measures to crack down on fundamentalism, including banning Islamist parties and executing terrorists: https:…

Great, why aren't we striking the Saudis then?

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#113

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

rayiner wrote: post #42
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #2

I'm kind of over the whole "Look, we killed someone far, far, far away for dubious reasons with NEW technology" articles. These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form.

They’re certainly bothering people and threatening peoples’ freedom. Thanks to the export of fundamentalist Islam from certain countries, my home country of Bangladesh is a more dangerous place today then when we left 30 years ago. (And it was under a military dictatorship then!) Unsurprisingly, we take harsh measures to crack down on fundamentalism, including banning Islamist parties and executing terrorists: https:…

There really isn't a threat over the next 30 as you are trying to paint. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh are 90+ percent muslim. So by default, any social strike from pickpocketing to bombings are going to be perpetrated by muslims and have muslims as the victims by and large. And let's keep in mind, that ISIS is blowback from the 2003 Iraq invasion, where once again we went to the Middle East based on "terrorism".

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#114

Post by duxup »

fuoqi wrote: post #107
duxup wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting contrast, your concern about outsiders involvement, and the basis for support for a oppressive government ... recognition from the outside. I believe government legitimacy has more to do with it's own people's feelings about the government's legitimacy and that government's own actions.

Let's get it straight, in your opinion a simple unilateral designation of a foreign government as "oppressive" is enough to justify actions which will help to overthrow it (including black flag operations and general destabilization), to fund and train militias which will fight against it, and even take a direct military action against the government forces? Do you think that Russian support of Donbass rebels in the…

I think a government's legitimacy comes form the people.

Locals don't start a civil war just because someone tells them, but as far as I can tell that seems to the only way you understand it.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#115

Post by GordonS »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #65
wongarsu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on terror has killed easily three orders of magnitude more people than 9/11, and antagonizes the US with the regional population. It's neither proportional nor effective.

Proportional? You think a proportionate response would be a bigger deterrent?

I'm not the OP, but I fully believe the disproportionate response, including invading an unrelated country in an oil grab, racial profiling, and the continued spread of FUD by politicians and lobbiests designed to sell votes and weapons, has itself created many people who now hate the US.

Dropping bombs on civilians all over the world in response to 3k people being killed in a single, highly unusual event, is not going to deter anyone - quite the opposite.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#116

Post by pasabagi »

rayiner wrote: post #42
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #2

I'm kind of over the whole "Look, we killed someone far, far, far away for dubious reasons with NEW technology" articles. These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form.

They’re certainly bothering people and threatening peoples’ freedom. Thanks to the export of fundamentalist Islam from certain countries, my home country of Bangladesh is a more dangerous place today then when we left 30 years ago. (And it was under a military dictatorship then!) Unsurprisingly, we take harsh measures to crack down on fundamentalism, including banning Islamist parties and executing terrorists: https:…

My read of Islamic extremism is that it's largely funded by arab dictatorships, either the elites, or the governments themselves. At the same time, the basic recruitment pitch is usually grounded in popular dissatisfaction about these dictators.

So you have people like Osama Bin Laden, an elite Saudi funded by other elite Saudis, with a recruitment pitch that was heavily dependent on the intense hatred many arabs have for the brutal dictatorships of the middle east, and their American backers.

America is more or less the sole reason why dysfunctional dictatorships like Saudi Arabia survive. They provide the arms, the intelligence, the diplomatic cover, and sometimes the military assistance these states need to survive. The same states then fund the most intolerant forms of Islam, while radicalizing their own citizens and those of neighboring countries through intense repression and military adventurism.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#117

Post by [deleted] »

fuoqi wrote: post #107
duxup wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting contrast, your concern about outsiders involvement, and the basis for support for a oppressive government ... recognition from the outside. I believe government legitimacy has more to do with it's own people's feelings about the government's legitimacy and that government's own actions.

Let's get it straight, in your opinion a simple unilateral designation of a foreign government as "oppressive" is enough to justify actions which will help to overthrow it (including black flag operations and general destabilization), to fund and train militias which will fight against it, and even take a direct military action against the government forces? Do you think that Russian support of Donbass rebels in the…

[deleted]

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#119

Post by ls612 »

tafox wrote: post #82
jimbob45 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That same argument could have been used to justify staying out of WW2. Even if Hitler was guaranteed to stay out of US affairs post-war, the fact remains that joining sooner would have resulted in millions of Europeans keeping their lives. Same here. Prematurely joining conflicts now allows us to save scores of lives abroad (at least in theory).

Nazi Germany declared war on the US first.

Even if they hadn’t we still would have declared war on them. It only moved up the timetable slightly.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#120

Post by fuoqi »

duxup wrote: post #114
fuoqi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's get it straight, in your opinion a simple unilateral designation of a foreign government as "oppressive" is enough to justify actions which will help to overthrow it (including black flag operations and general destabilization), to fund and train militias which will fight against it, and even take a direct military action against the government forces? Do you think that Russian support of Donbass rebels in the…

I think a government's legitimacy comes form the people. Locals don't start a civil war just because someone tells them, but as far as I can tell that seems to the only way you understand it.

You haven't answered my two questions. They are simple yes and no questions.

Yes, legitimacy comes from people, but any dictatorship or authoritarian government does require some amount of support from its people otherwise it will not last long (the number can be significantly smaller than 50%, but usually quite substantial). There are a lot of people in Syria who sincerely support the government (you can call them brainwashed by propaganda, but it does not change the fact) and any state has a sufficient amount of people who are unhappy about its government and would like to change it as soon as possible.

Is the current US government a legitimate one? Can Russia start covert support of the BLM protests by supplying means to confront police forces and embedding intelligence officers into the movement to help with coordination, while being justified in your eyes? What gives the US right to decide that Syrian government is not a legitimate one, thus creating a justification for such crude interventions, which only destabilize situation further?

The point is: one internationally recognized government can do deals with another internationally recognized government (with some restrictions, such as non-proliferation agreements, UN sanctions and others) and such deals are not equivalent to military support of foreign non-state actors and active attempts to overthrow "oppressive" governments (list of which by a very strange coincidence does not include Saudis and similar countries).

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