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The Programmer Salary Taboo

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Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#111

Post by gyardley »

michaelochurch wrote: post #69
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland, tax data is public -- you can go look up what your coworkers are making without the consent of either them or their employers. I don't think it has caused a race to the top in any meaningful way.

Even if it causes a "race to the top", is that such a bad thing? Shouldn't most of the fruits of labor go to the people doing the work?

Will they be paid a fraction of their salary if the company performs poorly?

The biggest rewards go to the biggest risk-takers.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#112

Post by michaelochurch »

run4yourlives wrote: post #108
michaelochurch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is better because it determines the average but not distribution. Imagine what would happen if there were five $70k salaries and one $165k salary for six people doing the same work. People would suddenly get very uncomfortable. One technical gripe: you forgot that the arithmetic needs to be modular to guarantee anonymity. Let's just say the large random number is chosen between 0 and 9,999,999. (You need a range…

>Imagine what would happen if there were five $70k salaries and one $165k salary for six people doing the same work. People would suddenly get very uncomfortable. Isn't that the entire point of the first exercise however? If the 165k salary isn't completely obvious, then it should make people feel uncomfortable - they are being shafted.

If you're getting the $165k, you're not going to be very enthusiastic about this exercise.

The modular-arithmetic alternative is better, at least in terms of political stability: they figure out that there's an average of $86k. Then the people making $70k all negotiate up to $90k and, even if getting shafted, people are happier.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#113

Post by chc »

michaelochurch wrote: post #85
madcaptenor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another method I've heard: person 1 picks a large random number, adds their salary to it, writes down the resulting number, and passes it on to person 2. Person 2 adds their salary to the number, writes down the new sum, and passes it on to person 3. This continues until the result gets back to person 1. You end up with the large random number plus the sum of everyone's salary. Person 1 then subtracts the large rando…

This is better because it determines the average but not distribution. Imagine what would happen if there were five $70k salaries and one $165k salary for six people doing the same work. People would suddenly get very uncomfortable. One technical gripe: you forgot that the arithmetic needs to be modular to guarantee anonymity. Let's just say the large random number is chosen between 0 and 9,999,999. (You need a range…

You could get the same effect just by not defining an upper bound for the number, or if he really wants it to be secret, the first person could just not choose a number that close to the upper bound. It's not like this is something so out of the participants' control that we need to overcomplicate the math.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#114

Post by jRoden »

michaelochurch wrote: post #85
madcaptenor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another method I've heard: person 1 picks a large random number, adds their salary to it, writes down the resulting number, and passes it on to person 2. Person 2 adds their salary to the number, writes down the new sum, and passes it on to person 3. This continues until the result gets back to person 1. You end up with the large random number plus the sum of everyone's salary. Person 1 then subtracts the large rando…

This is better because it determines the average but not distribution. Imagine what would happen if there were five $70k salaries and one $165k salary for six people doing the same work. People would suddenly get very uncomfortable. One technical gripe: you forgot that the arithmetic needs to be modular to guarantee anonymity. Let's just say the large random number is chosen between 0 and 9,999,999. (You need a range…

Umm...what? The first person just picks a number, there's no RNG involved, no need to tell anyone a range. I know we're taught to plan for edge cases, but I find this pretty silly.

edit: Nevermind the second point, I basically echoed what run4yourlives said - I think the averaging somewhat defeats the purpose. "Political stability" is the whole reason they ask not to disclose salaries in the first place.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#115

Post by michaelochurch »

gyardley wrote: post #111
michaelochurch wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it causes a "race to the top", is that such a bad thing? Shouldn't most of the fruits of labor go to the people doing the work?

Will they be paid a fraction of their salary if the company performs poorly? The biggest rewards go to the biggest risk-takers.

I can see the point you're trying to make, but humanistically and morally speaking, this isn't true.

A person with $10 million who puts $3 million into a business isn't taking that much of a risk. There's some risk there and, yes, it should be rewarded. But a person with no net worth is taking a huge risk every time he takes a new job: career risk.

This dynamic exists in startups as well. The people who are taking the real risks are the founders, not the venture capitalists.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#116

Post by hugh3 »

dbjacobs wrote: post #20

When working for the federal government everyone knows everyone else's salary. So it can be done, and is generally less corrosive than hidden salaries.

Would you say that the Federal Government is a hotbed of competence and hard work, though?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#117

Post by ratsbane »

techiferous wrote: post #105
wging wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$175/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year = $350,000/year, for anyone else (like me) who can't immediately estimate equivalent yearly rates.

But remember that there is non-billable work (accounting, etc.) and a 15.3% self-employment tax. And also remember that there are probably not 50 weeks of 40 hours/week at this company but rather short-term or part-time work. And you are paying for your own benefits. I've found a good (albeit a bit conservative) rule-of-thumb is to convert the hourly wage into the yearly salary. Working as a consultant for $175/hour…

A minor correction: it's not as bad as 15.3%. The self-employment tax is really just the company share of FICA withholding (6.2%) plus Medicare withholding (1.45%) If you're an employee you pay 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% and your employer pays the same. If someone else (employer) is not paying the 7.65% then you do.

However, for 2011 the FICA rate for employees is 4.2% instead of 6.2%, so the self-employment tax remains effectively 7.65%. But that's only for the first $106,800 in earnings - everything above that is not subject to FICA and Medicare for employer and employee.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#119

Post by fourk »

michaelochurch wrote: post #41
harryh wrote: post #29

Consider a hypothetical scenario for the person on the other side of the table: You are hiring up an engineering team and hope to hire up a team of 10 engineers paying 100k/yr each. So far you've hired 9 people at 100k and are working on filling that last slot. You find someone perfect but he has a competing job offer and is asking for 110k/yr instead of just 100. He's no better than the other 9 people you have alrea…

Several strategies exist: 1. Bump everyone to $105k and ask if he's willing to take that number. If he's going to turn the job down over $5,000, do you really want him? 2. Offer him a $10,000 signing bonus and the same salary as everyone else. 3. Hire him at $110k but give him more responsibility-- including tasks that the other developers don't want to do, such as responsibility for 3:00 am phone calls when the data…

Re: "If he's going to turn the job down over $5,000, do you really want him?"

Couldn't the same be said from the applicant's perspective? If a prospective employer is going to nickel and dime you over 5k, do you really want to work for them?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#120

Post by wh-uws »

hack_edu wrote: post #58
tzs wrote: post #36

Wait...Google starts at $100k/year for people fresh out of college with an undergraduate degree? So what do they go up to for people with experience?

Bear in mind they're not hiring just any old graduate. Google loves to claim they are only interested in candidates from the Top Schools.

Its not just about "Top Schools"(TM)

Have you ever even read the gamut of knowledge they send you to prepare for one of those interviews?

These are some of the best coders alive. And the people are Google are not stupid so they know they need to defray people from poaching as best they can.

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