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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

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Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#111

Post by brushfoot »

wiz21c wrote: post #72
brushfoot wrote: post #67

The article sets up a bit of a false dichotomy. It's partly inherent in using idleness as the alternative to economically productive work. Did Russell himself use that term (edit: yes :-))? I'm guessing it's supposed to be provocative, to make it stick. But I'd imagine that's part of the problem. Many people would balk, and I think rightly so, at the connotations. There's nothing positive about undirected free time o…

> There's nothing positive about undirected free time over a long period. I could easily fill that time with dozens of ideas. But you see, I'm lucky enough to be a "creative" person. That is, I'm in love with the things I invent. The more I invent, the more passionnated I am. I can sustain an incredible level of activity just to achieve goals I create myself. But these goals are mostly non economic. So being able to…

I'd say what you're describing isn't undirected. You have goals and they sound positive, assuming that what you're inventing is positive (e.g., not torture devices). They use and refine your creativity, they potentially help others, they give you opportunities to partner with others to work toward a common positive goal, etc.

I don't think that's idleness for the average person. It's more like nihilism and hedonism.

I'm not arguing that jobs are the solution, to be clear -- just objecting to the terminology. If everyone would use free time in the way you would, there would be no problem.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#112

Post by erichocean »

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

Industrial Society and its Future has a far more interesting take on this topic, and one that I haven't seen effectively refuted. (If you have examples, please comment!)

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#113

Post by d_burfoot »

I get upset when I read essays like this that don't mention the role that the government plays in creating drudgery and destroying leisure. A good way to highlight this is to point out that in the US, the government at all levels spends about $20K/person/year. If that money was just redistributed to individuals, we would actually be living in the leisure-filled world predicted in the early part of the century. Instead the money is mostly just frittered away.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#114

Post by NomDePlum »

d_burfoot wrote: post #113

I get upset when I read essays like this that don't mention the role that the government plays in creating drudgery and destroying leisure. A good way to highlight this is to point out that in the US, the government at all levels spends about $20K/person/year. If that money was just redistributed to individuals, we would actually be living in the leisure-filled world predicted in the early part of the century. Instea…

What do you base the conclusion of that statement on? Other than stating there is a 'better' way you don't appear to have provided a rational as to why it is better.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#115

Post by caymanjim »

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you don't own your time, people will take it from you.

I'm perhaps speaking from a place of privilege, but it's not that hard to achieve. I've been doing this my whole life, from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career.

Sit on the couch. Take a vacation. Quit your job. Say no to overtime always and forever. Blow off weekends often. Nothing is as important as others will tell you it is. You're going to die some day and when you're on your death bed you won't regret the times you did nothing.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#116

Post by erichocean »

megameter wrote: post #54
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From above, we can only conclude that capitalism and profit-oriented economy are insane I don't see the conclusion. I can only see there are many specific problems with capitalism.

A major function of capitalism is to direct human attention towards utilitarian valuation, which produces the growth-and-exploitation formula we are familiar with: more stuff is made, more land is developed, but it is often done by overfitting to market prices. But increasingly we are turning the valuation process over to algorithms, sensors, and other precision instruments. If we extrapolate this onwards, the market…

> At that point, transition away from capitalism will seem obvious.

I expect the global population to be reduced and/or reprogrammed over time (via genetic interventions) long before I expect techno-capitalist industrial society to implode.

The horror that is possible with technology is essentially unbounded, and any discomfort caused to humans can be overcome through drugs and similar measures. Hell, we're already medicating people in first-world economies in extraordinary numbers.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#117

Post by Thorentis »

Some of the highest goods (as in, virtuous or wholesome things) are those that are sometimes described by workaholics, or parents of over achievers, as "useless" or "wastes of time".

Art, music, sport, leisure, time with family- all these things (and more) put us in touch with the greater things in life. We collectively live out the human experience in a way that crashes through barriers of language, and in my opinion, we also encounter the transcendental.

Work is simply a means - not an end in itself. I work so I can provide for my family. The good I am pursuing is the welfare of my family. That gives my work a higher meaning. Those engaged in charity work or volunteer work (also a higher good) are usually paid the least.

I find that the people who fall into the trap of treating their work as an end, are the ones the most susceptible to burn out, depression, and low life satisfaction.

Make time for the "useless" things. Go for a walk, read a book, look at the birds, listen to music, write a poem, get out those pencils you never use, play an instrument, watch a good film, go fishing, spend time with your kids, buy something nice for your wife. But for goodness sake, forget about work for enough time each week. You'll feel infinitely better.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#118

Post by zemvpferreira »

icelancer wrote: post #96
zemvpferreira wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of us here founded companies with eight-figure valuations. Not that uncommon on hacker news. I did and I’ve never worked-worked more than 30 hours per week except for short bursts at a time. The more critical your work is, the more time you should dedicate to being at your best. I don’t take any umbrage at your chosen path nor do I disagree that america is a winner take most society. But when most is a bunch o…

Well I work two jobs plus consulting, so it's like 30-35 hrs/job if that works! I agree RE: consumerism. I save / invest most of my money and spend it on services like you (though I cook most of my meals since it's a hobby of mine; but same idea with a nanny, housekeeper, etc). I wear mostly free clothing from vendors and my suits (such that I need them) are all from Indochino; I drive a 12 year old used SUV around a…

It sounds like your priorities are on track. There are far worse things to do in life than to accumulate generational wealth and save your kids from the drudgery of meaningless jobs. How much money do you think you’ll need to be comfortable?

That said I still have a problem with the idea that working 70 hours out of every week is good - even if you feel energized, certainly you can’t be operating near your peak.

Take the world’s best in the world’s most star-driven market, Ronaldo. How many hours does he work every week? 10 real work hours, plus 10-15 of preparation? Would we expect him to be a better footballer if he also took a shift doing data analysis at McKinsey nights and weekends? Or is it better that he focus on being close to 100% of his potential on every match?

I’m sure you’re extremely good at what you do and I’m genuinely thrilled to see what you’ll produce when you can afford to be better-rested (if you don’t burn out before). I’m sure it will be your best work.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#119

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

marta_morena_25 wrote: post #95
baddox wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. I wouldn't look at that and conclude that these people are just domesticated livestock who have no self-worth beyond their job. A lot of legitimate hobbies and even just normal socializing are completely shut down or heavily restricted in a lot of places.

Isn't that exactly the point? It's just extended a little, with "legitimate hobbies" and "normal socializing" not available. So take that away and then they are domesticated livestock? If you don't have the ability to do something with your time outside of your normal environment, that is definitely an indicator that something is really off. There is SOOOO much you can do. I wouldn't even know where to start even if…

In prison, the worst punishment you can get is being moved AWAY from all the rapists and murderers, and into solitary confinement. Humans are extremely social creatures.

I still have my job, but not being able to go out and socialize in the evenings and on weekends is driving me a little nutty. Sure, I work on some side projects, read books, work out, watch films, etc., but it just doesn't come remotely close to filling the same void for me as having a drink and good conversation (in real-life) with my close friends, or swinging by my climbing gym, or seeing live music.

I don't think that means something is "really off" with me, or that I'm "domesticated livestock" - it just means my hobbies and the way I like to spend my time aren't as pandemic-friendly as yours.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#120

Post by cpursley »

mc32 wrote: post #97
sharadov wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that passive entertainment is all that we crave, people in general have become "lazy", they simply don't want to put the effort in doing anything "active" > sports, art, music. And I disagree, you can pick a new sport, prior to the pandemic I worked out at the gym and played racquetball. Now I work out at home with kettle bells and resistance bands. Picked up mountain biking and tennis, which are "so…

Yes and no. Kayaking needs transport to a body of water. Biking is okay, but some people find it hard to breathe with a mask on while biking. Musical instruments work if you have a private residence and already know how to play. If you don't many people prefer learning from a tutor. Of course there are some things we can do by ourselves, but not everyone is made that way. Lots and lots of people would rather while ti…

Good grief, people. If you're wearing a mask while on a bike (distant from people) you're doing it wrong.
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