Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote • Hacker News Board

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#111

Post by grayfaced » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

Blahah wrote: post #65

PeterisP wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like any education representative can change immigration policy or grant some exceptions, it's not up to them. If taking online classes means that the students visas become invalid, or if their current visa restrictions mean that it's prohibited for them to be in an online-only program, then that's exactly what it means, and it's wrong to blame schools or education department about it, it's not about educati…

Surely every person involved should simply be turning to the people above/before them in the chain of command and saying "this is impossible, we need to be more flexible now". And whoever is blocking that escalation is reasonably part of the problem.

Escalating only works when you can reach reason in the higher chain. You can only go to senior leadership with the options and consequences. We have option A or option B, or we do nothing and we have consequence C. When that leader picks consequence C then you're stuck.

We have an administration that doesn't value academia or the visa program. So it's no surprise they're willing to sacrifice it in name of "schools must open".

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#112

Post by belval » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #94

bruceb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 40% stat gets pushed all the time with no context. The way it sounds is that super immigrants are starting these companies. But the way the study is, a 5 person founding team could have 1 person who was son/daughter of immigrant and then it is counted. Lots of valuable brains are outside the country, but doesn't mean we should traffic in somewhat misleading statistics.

How is that misleading?

To be clear I have no skin in the game (not from the US), but if the GP's claims are true, then I was misled because I did think that the 40% that gets thrown around was founded only by immigrants.

Does it change my view on immigration? Of course not, but it does indicate that if immigration was stopped entirely then it is not true to say that that 40% slice of fortune 500 companies would simply never have been founded.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#113

Post by Falling3 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

screenbeam wrote: post #86

rajup wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor nit: I believe H1B transfers for people already in the country are still being processed. But your broader point of the US government actively preventing global talent from entering the country stands. Very sad indeed.

Not sad. Great!

What's great about that?

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#114

Post by the_svd_doctor » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

jb775 wrote: post #99

International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time, and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending in person. I guess the gray area here is that colleges, many of them being for-profit entities, are facing big drops in enrollment and can essentially sell US citizenship in exchange for tuition payments. Once an online course system is set up, the only cost is…

> "sell US citizenship"

This is a big overstatement. There are many far from trivial steps between being a F/M student and getting citizenship.

It certainly is a way for people to start they "immigration journey" to the US, though, obviously.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#115

Post by brewdad » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

jmhwang7 wrote: post #72

HarryHirsch wrote: post #40

The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are. There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia. Here is some background: https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Edu…

Why are you calling Georgia Tech a visa mill/diploma mill? It's not mentioned at all in that linked article.

He's using GT as an example of a "real" school with real online opportunities. The counterexample is Northern Virginia.

On it's surface, with no prior knowledge of reputation, it can be hard to recognize the diploma mill from the legitimate program. This becomes even more difficult when the legit program is a lesser known, lower tier, but still properly functioning institution.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#116

Post by TeaDrunk » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

screenbeam wrote: post #82

three_seagrass wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's another measurable, negative impact of the America First philosophy [1]. 40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrant families [2][3], so the U.S. is really shooting itself in the foot (again). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_(policy) [2] F500 2010: http://research.newamericaneconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/20... (pdf) [3] F500 2017: https://startupsusa.org/fortune500/

America first is a great policy. Our people need jobs and our policies should reflect that.

Our policies should reflect that our people also includes immigrants and that we are strongest when the definition of american is == "the best and the brightest from around the world".

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#117

Post by kerneltime » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

genericone wrote: post #79

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

Weren't these visas supposed to be for bringing talented individuals with expertise deemed to be missing in the US? Was the visa system ever 'just' for bringing 'highly qualified' individuals? If America wants highly qualified individuals, it seems to me that 'nurturing' that talent is more important. Bringing in uniquely talented individuals who can distribute expert knowledge accomplishes that. Bringing an IT worke…

Bringing in raw talent and nurturing them here has been successful for USA. That is the student visa route.. I think you are referring to H1B?

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#118

Post by anon102010 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

screenbeam wrote: post #82

three_seagrass wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's another measurable, negative impact of the America First philosophy [1]. 40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrant families [2][3], so the U.S. is really shooting itself in the foot (again). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_(policy) [2] F500 2010: http://research.newamericaneconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/20... (pdf) [3] F500 2017: https://startupsusa.org/fortune500/

America first is a great policy. Our people need jobs and our policies should reflect that.

I don't think the America First folks realize how damaging these trump policies are to america.

The brain drain effect is almost always linked to poor economic performance. And the rules are so ham fisted now. Bipartisan H1B reform goes nowhere (prioritize US masters degrees, block H1B dependent employers from more H1Bs etc). Stupid stuff is everywhere.

Immigrants bringing in revenue (plenty) support US jobs in the US.

It's going to be a rude shock to the less skilled american worker to find a lot of jobs going remote overseas (Canada even) and their middle management / entry level office jobs vanishing.

This historic effect here, where another country educates someone, and then they come to the US, is INSANELY profitable for the US. Seriously, in a ruthless way folks who are not successful in school, have health issues, have criminal backgrounds, are disabled etc don't come in on these visas.

Instead its ambitious folks ANOTHER COUNTRY has invested a lot into coming to the US. How does that hurt the US?

This has always been a huge advantage the US has had. Crazy to see the US throwing it away.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#119

Post by nine_zeros » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

International folks need to realize that life is too precious. You don't want to spend time with bureaucracy and threat of deportation while getting education and pursuing productive careers.

America of the past is gone. It's rapidly deteriorating. Save your lives and don't enter into any educational or business arrangement with America.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#120

Post by rileymat2 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #94

bruceb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 40% stat gets pushed all the time with no context. The way it sounds is that super immigrants are starting these companies. But the way the study is, a 5 person founding team could have 1 person who was son/daughter of immigrant and then it is counted. Lots of valuable brains are outside the country, but doesn't mean we should traffic in somewhat misleading statistics.

How is that misleading?

I don’t agree with the overall point but there is an implication in the use of the stat that the business would not have started if not for that 1 out of 5 founder.

Alternatively, that role would have been filled By someone else.