Live data from Hacker News

Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

npr.org

111–120 of 348 posts

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would we not pay out significantly less for people who are struggling to find jobs? The CARES act allocated most of the money to individuals, state and local governments, public health, and education initiatives. The amount given to large corporations (much in the form of loans that will be paid back) is less than that given to individuals: NPR has a good breakdown. The idea that corporations are receiving “tri…

That breakdown is missing the trillion dollars of corporate debt that the fed is now engaging in purchasing. Correction: in terms of direct corporate debt purchase, they have currently committed to less than half a trillion dollars of purchases independent of the CARES act. But the breakdown is also missing $210 billion of reduced corporate taxes! The CARES act is a good attempt at providing fair outcomes for everyon…

They have not bought anywhere close to trillion dollars worth of corporate debt. As you can see in the breakdown [0], most of what they are buying is our own governments debt (the same debt used to fund the CARES act) and US mortgage backed securities.

[0]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/h41.htm

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#112
If you define it as someone getting something while not working vs others getting nothing while working, yes, thank you NPR. That's how unemployment benefits work. That's why government handouts are damaging, especially in the long term. They inherently incentivize not working and punish those who do work.

More importantly, government rarely does anything efficiently. I'm gainfully employed and don't need any "help" from the government, yet I received a debit card from the IRS containing my "relief" money. As much as I appreciate the government giving me back my tax dollars, why did I receive this and not someone who's recently unemployed?

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#113

From the time Congress passed the $6.2T Bill that gave $4T to the FED to prop up the stock market, $700B in PPP loans; and and estimated $300B to the people ($1,200) stimulus checks, it should have put things in perspective. Ideally the stock market wouldn't have been propped up and the PPP loan program would have been more legitimate to save real small businesses (just wait until all the fraud comes out of this thin…

Congress didn't give the Federal Reserve $4 trillion. They gave the Treasury Department $500 billion, which the Federal Reserve leveraged to give out about $3 trillion in loans.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would we not pay out significantly less for people who are struggling to find jobs? The CARES act allocated most of the money to individuals, state and local governments, public health, and education initiatives. The amount given to large corporations (much in the form of loans that will be paid back) is less than that given to individuals: NPR has a good breakdown. The idea that corporations are receiving “tri…

That breakdown is missing the trillion dollars of corporate debt that the fed is now engaging in purchasing. Correction: in terms of direct corporate debt purchase, they have currently committed to less than half a trillion dollars of purchases independent of the CARES act. But the breakdown is also missing $210 billion of reduced corporate taxes! The CARES act is a good attempt at providing fair outcomes for everyon…

> These wealth gaps historically lead to populism, which is how we ended up with our current president.

Yet our current president is presiding over exactly what you’re describing.

Also, as the other commenter explained, there are several problems with your understanding of the Fed’s operations and what they mean in terms of long-term budget. It’s not correct to compare cash payments to individuals with counter-cyclical quantitative easing.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#115

> When she got her unemployment benefits, she realized something unheard of: She was making more money not working. The temporary COVID unemployment bill was so rushed that they didn’t index the unemployment to the person’s earnings. If you lost your job or had your hours reduced, you get an extra $600/week on top of state unemployment. About half of people receiving this are receiving more from the combined unemploy…

> The temporary COVID unemployment bill was so rushed that they didn’t index the unemployment to the person’s earnings. No, it was a deliberate choice to make total benefits bump up to approximately full earnings at a low-but-not-quite-bottom-barrel working income with common state formulas while providing (proportionate to income) less benefit to high income workers (presumed to, when working, have greater surplus i…

>It was also controversial from the beginning, with the Right raising moral hazard arguments that it would encourage people to become and remain unemployed, as if that were an option for most recipients.

I don't get it -- you're talking like the concern was dubious, even as we see that prediction came exactly true.[2] And yes, not seeking re-employment, or not asking to return to work is an option; see all the stories about employers being unable to get employees to return to work because they'd take an income cut [1].

And, to be sure, that may be the desired outcome, that people stay away from work while receiving some income, so as to mitigate the epidemic risk, while preserving financial security. That's a fair argument to make. But the moral hazard concern was 100% correct, that it would layer on an extreme disincentive to work that overcorrects well beyond the incentives we might actually want.

>Federal spending doesn't come from money laying around, in the first place, it comes from money the government decides to have because it wants to spend it. Even if you buy into the mythology of the fisc, marginal spending comes out of borrowing at, typically, very low interest rates (currently, IIRC, at negative real interest rates),

It's true that the federal government can borrow on favorable terms and so it's probably prudent to borrow now for epidemic mitigation -- especially at negative nominal rates! -- but that doesn't make it "myth" that the federal government is not some infinite pot of real resources that will be able to indefinitely cover these expenses; eventually they have to hit a wall. We can debate where that point will be, but it's not mythical.

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/baltimore-restaurant-owner-cant-get...

[2] Even on HN, it was like pulling teeth just to suggest this was a real effect to worry about; see this thread where I tried to point out the effect: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22640082

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#116
post #82
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need to quantify it?

Because we shouldn't spend tax money on solutions that show no gain or make things worse for the country as a whole.

Last 75 years of foreign & drug wars: https://i.redd.it/b4rgt6ovw7k31.jpg

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But, it just highlighted how many people are working and not earning a living wage in the first place. Exactly, we allegedly had the best economy the world has ever seen, record high stock prices/markets, and lowest rate of unemployment. But the reality the economy was revealed to be weak and not even capitalism (capital based ownership) but some form of debtism (some form of financial servitude, in lieu of ownershi…

> not even capitalism (capital based ownership) but some form of debtism (some form of financial servitude, in lieu of ownership). Eh, I'd argue it's still capitalism. Nothing about capitalism says how concentrated capital can't be.

With that allowance, feudalism would be considered capitalism though. The problem isn't just a skewed concentration of capital. It's that most people do not have any capital and their situation is denominated by debt.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#118

If you define it as someone getting something while not working vs others getting nothing while working, yes, thank you NPR. That's how unemployment benefits work. That's why government handouts are damaging, especially in the long term. They inherently incentivize not working and punish those who do work. More importantly, government rarely does anything efficiently. I'm gainfully employed and don't need any "help"…

> They inherently incentivize not working and punish those who do work.

Do you have any evidence of this claim?

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#119
post #25

From the time Congress passed the $6.2T Bill that gave $4T to the FED to prop up the stock market, $700B in PPP loans; and and estimated $300B to the people ($1,200) stimulus checks, it should have put things in perspective. Ideally the stock market wouldn't have been propped up and the PPP loan program would have been more legitimate to save real small businesses (just wait until all the fraud comes out of this thin…

> If all that money instead went to the people/taxpayers they would all have received an $18,000 stimulus check instead of $1,200, I think this would have been the best move possible. Everyone I know would choose their entire retirement fund over a one time check of $18,000 . I understand your sentiment, and it does feel like we got less that we deserve, but stimulating the stock market was absolutely the right move.…

>Everyone I know would choose their entire retirement fund over a one time check of $18,000

I am assuming you don't know a single person in the 40% that don't have $400 saved up for emergencies.

>it does feel like we got less that we deserve, but stimulating the stock market was absolutely the right move.

It isn't without merit...until you look behind the curtain at OZ. The stock market was already in a bubble and we just inflated the bubble even more. P/E ratios in the public markets are beginning to make revenue-less tech unicorns look reasonable.

>a majority of Americans have a 401k

Ok, so they have a conflict of interest in the matter (25% of Americans have no retirement). Of those with a 401K aged 35-44 the median balance is $22k (so its pretty much a wash for them). Then on the very harsh side of things, the free market side, you risked your money by investing, if a portion of your portfolio includes stock in overvalued companies with runaway P/E ratios that didn't have cash reserves to whether the storm, you invested poorly and you should expect taxpayers to bailout your poor investments.

Re: Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than the jobless

#120
post #43
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If all that money instead went to the people/taxpayers they would all have received an $18,000 stimulus check instead of $1,200, I think this would have been the best move possible. Everyone I know would choose their entire retirement fund over a one time check of $18,000 . I understand your sentiment, and it does feel like we got less that we deserve, but stimulating the stock market was absolutely the right move.…

If everyone got 18000 a lot of the money we spent on the top half of the economy becomes unnecessary. For example, there will be no evictions and so that sector doesn’t need propping up. More importantly people would have stayed home and so we could have tamed the virus which would mean the economy opens up quicker and safer. This is a people issue and not an economic issue. Dealing it like that would have saved the…

> This is a people issue and not an economic issue.

Take it a step further: All economic issues are really people issues, in one way or another.

The economy exists to serve people. We do not exist to serve it. Whenever there are measures that are "to help the economy", but which are detrimental to ordinary workers, they're not really to help "the economy"—they're to help the people at the very top, at everyone else's expense.

We need to refocus on what helps actual people—what helps the most people—rather than on the misleading abstract of "the economy."

Post reply on HN