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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#111

Post by throwaway894345 »

simondw wrote: post #50
toast0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

> The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence Obviously. But they weren't, and given precedent, probably never would have been. That's why this is happening.

There's lots of precedent of officers being charged and arrested. Not often enough, and they are especially acquitted too often, but the public perception that they aren't charged is a function of media narrative, not fact.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#112

Post by throwaway894345 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #42
toast0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

It's the last way the people have for their voice to be heard. All laws come from the people governed; legislatures serve at their behest and for their interests. If you have SO MANY people decrying an action -- it's direct democracy in real time.

Voting? Anyway, there's pretty broad agreement that the riots are opportunistic violence, not connected to or motivated by a concern for justice.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#113

Post by frockington1 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #47
mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

So you want the GOP President to convince liberal strongholds such as DC, NYC and Minneapolis to be less racist? They've made it clear the do not respect him as a leader from day one. Don't really blame him for focusing elsewhere

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#114

Post by teachrdan »

devalgo wrote: post #69
simondw wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence Obviously. But they weren't, and given precedent, probably never would have been. That's why this is happening.

The officer in question has been charged with murder. The Minnesota Governor and AG were both advocating for charges basically since day 1 and well before the protests so it's not at all clear the turmoil influenced his arrest.

To the contrary, the prosecutor had this to say about why he had not pressed charges:

'But my job in the end is to prove he violated a criminal statute - but there is other evidence that does not support a criminal charge.'[0]

This quotation is from a tabloid, but the quote--and the DA's failure to say unequivocally that he would prosecute Floyd's killer, Chauvin--contributed to the riots.

And then Chauvin was arrested the day after riots started.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8367221/Prosecutors...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#115

Post by frockington1 »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #63
systemvoltage wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

What's surprising about that? I'm actually asking, not trying to provoke. There are four years of precedent of the leadership specifically and intentionally dividing and radicalizing the nation to directly drive electoral support to maintain power. Cruelty to outside groups is historically a very effective means to consolidate power. This is completely in line with past behavior and will more than likely continue.

4 years? Probably closer to 40 on all sides of the spectrum

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#116

Post by evan_ »

ImprobableTruth wrote: post #93
slyslacker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it…

I'm generally on board with everything you've said, but >like to see most beat cops completely disarmed seems absolutely crazy to me as long as the general public has such easy access to guns.

Why?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#117

Post by Avicebron »

sidibe wrote: post #105
Press2forEN wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values. We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

I wonder if things would be better if there was some mandatory thing like jury duty where you had to go meet and hang out for an hour with a different randomly picked person every a month at some center where they'd have something for you to do so it's not 100% awkward. I realize that's a terrible idea, but not sure of any way of changing people's attitudes towards each other when they'd rather stick to their little…

My co-worker who once worked in an Amazon fulfillment center, said that it was the most diverse place in terms of groups represented that he had ever worked. Conversely he said it was the most segregated environment he had ever been in, with different groups strictly regulating their interaction with other groups, say at lunch, to what they were required to do by work. I know it's anecdota, but I still don't know where I can square this information with the interactions and conversations we are having today. Maybe one-on-one interactions are the way to go, no group tribalism going on.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#118

Post by teachrdan »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Is that chronology right? Were there protests before he was arrested? Was there property damage in those protests? Even if so, 90% of the protests and property damage were after the arrest, so... they're pointless?

The riots are also a way to maintain pressure on the DA's office to not drop charges or fail to fully prosecute Chauvin.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#119

Post by frockington1 »

frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

And it will be even harder for the communities hurt by this to come back. When you burn down stores in the neighborhood, its very likely the services and taxes they provide are not coming back

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#120

Post by mmsimanga »

enterabdazer wrote: post #96
mmsimanga wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an American. Can you share one or two reforms that you would like implemented. It is hard to grasp what is really going on from a distance.

Other replies have some useful ideas, but I think it's important to strike right at the heart of the issue: lack of accountability and redress. Something _like_: make police leadership legally accountable for the actions of their officers. I say something _like_ this because it's in the right direction, but probably not the exact solution necessary. Another similar approach is something _like_ forbidding police union…

We have a different problem in my country of residence in that policing is a federal/national function. There are two arms of police, crime is handled by national police and enforcing of city by laws is done by the city/metro police. It just feels like police don't have enough local leadership. I always thought the US system where the police report to the mayor enables the mayor (read local person) to have a fair say in how things are run. I guess mayors have enough on their plates and it must be hard to change a large body as big as the police. I am extrapolating my experiences moving large organisations to new IT systems which is often easier said than done.
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