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Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

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Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#111
post #71
post #17

Two thoughts on apolitical, pragmatic grounds: This is a good ruling regardless of the importance of religious beliefs one might have. Churches are still subject to baseline rules like building codes, food safety (if they have a kitchen), have to pay their phone bill or else lose phone services,and the like. This represents an appropriate segregation of responsibility and allows parishioners to participate without ha…

> The justices, though they don’t face elections, sometimes describe themselves as politicians Could you cite examples of them saying that? Generally, the justices go out of the way to insist that they are not political. See, for instance: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-chiefjustice/u-...

I'm sorry I can't easily lay hands on a link. My statement comes from various speeches given by Justices over the last few decades, which are typically to legal gatherings or to law students. The point is slightly different from the one Roberts made in the article you linked to.

In that he's talking about a perception that the court is not impartial and that the justices are seen as taking positions, and even (by implication) instruction from political parties. This concern, by the way, has existed for a long time, at least to the era of Dredd Scott if not earlier; presidents from Lincoln to FDR and, to a lesser extent to recent times have made the same charge.

And that is the sense in which I have heard various justices (since the 1970s -- I'm an old fart -- through a speech Roberts gave a few years ago which I couldn't find by searching -- in which they need to manage the perception of partiality because the Court is a participant in public life, and indeed in political public life. The sense in which I was quoting is that they are political actors though the entity they are working to protect is the credibility of their institution.

I have no illusion that any judge is superhuman and able to be impartial. But it's interesting to see how Justices' voting tends to shift as they are on the court for a while. It implies a certain independence of mind, though perhaps not from each other.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#112
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a hypothetical religion that has worship which consists of something criminal (i.e. adherents kill for their god or something). I don't know the legal justification, but their freedom of religion would surely be trumped by my right to life, if an adherent tried to murder me :)

You completely failed to understand my comment: if the Constitutional freedom of religion is too broad why do you accept the Constitution to be ignored with such decisions instead of fixing the problem, the Constitutional text? In your example it is clear the problem is the Constitution text being too broad/generic. SCOTUS is not there to rewrite or cut the text, people voting can do that.

I think a constitution is meant to be broadly worded so it would not have to be changed often, though. Are you proposing to make the constitution just a regular old law?

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#113

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE EXERCISE THEREOF; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The Founding Fathers would weep of what has become of America.

Congress has not made any law prohibiting the exercise of religion.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#114
post #101

The difference between respecting a right and not can be seen by how much restraint goes into crafting the law. The details can get murky, but often the spirit is plain to see: was a good faith effort made to specialize the law to the problem being solved with minimal interference on any rights? Here, the California order doesn't ban going to church, it places additional building capacity and total attendance limits.…

The gun store issue in California is even worse because of the gun laws. You cannot lawfully acquire ammunition anywhere except at a gun store. You cannot lawfully acquire or transfer a firearm to another person except at a gun store. Lending a firearm to a friend in case of civil unrest is right out. And if you have a place to shoot right now, your ammunition supply is probably a little perilous.

The background-check-for-ammo law is a constitutional disaster. There was recently an injunction against the AG enforcing it, but the ninth stayed the lower court's order.

I read the decision granting the injunction, and wow. The ID requirements are even higher than for buying a gun -- you need certain kinds of ID that proves that you are a citizen (passports can take a long time to get, and some people have complications with their birth certificate). For those who were able to provide such an ID, the background check falsely rejected 16% of applicants, amounting to over 100K people.

I really think that people would be more willing to compromise if they felt that their rights were respected. But what a lot of people don't realize is how outright hostile these gun control laws are. They are meant to penalize and annoy gun owners, not provide safety.

Another example is the handgun roster in California, where you can only buy certain models that were approved before 2013. They aren't safer, they just made the new standards infeasible to meet, so no more models are approved. This doesn't help anyone, unless you think annoying gun owners is a worthwhile goal.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#115

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE EXERCISE THEREOF; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The Founding Fathers would weep of what has become of America.

This is way more nuanced then your argument and all 9 Supreme Court justices would agree to this. For example fire hazard laws apply to churches even though it would seem to be in violation of your quote. Say you have to argue how this is related to relevant law, and why the church would be irreparably harmed by waiting until the case comes up later presumably this year.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#116
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. In CA (this case was about a california rule) certain non-essential businesses are opened under heavy restrictions which include contact and congregation rules. Churches are not given an exception to those rules, which still bar similar things like concerts. And cases like that most definitely have and do reach the Supreme Court: consider hobby lobby or this year’s rulings on teachers at religious schools…

I edited my comment to say "some non-essential businesses" to avoid implication that all non-essential businesses were opened which I didn't intend. >Churches are not given an exception to those rules, which still bar similar things like concerts. This was the decision of the Supreme Court. The Pentecostal Church and the dissenting judges think differently. >And cases like that most definitely have and do reach the S…

Based on this reply I now can't tell if you agree with me or not.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#117
post #99

The difference between respecting a right and not can be seen by how much restraint goes into crafting the law. The details can get murky, but often the spirit is plain to see: was a good faith effort made to specialize the law to the problem being solved with minimal interference on any rights? Here, the California order doesn't ban going to church, it places additional building capacity and total attendance limits.…

Are you advocating gun stores have to remain open for the right of the people to own a gun? Why would anybody need a gun right now while their biggest life treat is a virus? Please lord more riots with more people having guns would be a plead from Anders Breivik. Does that guy have internet these days?

> Are you advocating gun stores have to remain open for the right of the people to own a gun?

How am I supposed to bear arms if I can't obtain arms? I think it's fairly reasonable to close gun shops if all other stores are closed, but there's no reason not to allow gun shops to open under the same terms as other shops. Maybe pickup / curbside only, maybe strict simultaneous customer limits, whatever.

> Why would anybody need a gun right now while their biggest life treat is a virus?

I personally don't think more guns help to deescalate situations, but there's like a lot of unrest, and some people think guns can be used to protect themselves from rioters, riot police, instigators, or some combination of the three.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#118
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a hypothetical religion that has worship which consists of something criminal (i.e. adherents kill for their god or something). I don't know the legal justification, but their freedom of religion would surely be trumped by my right to life, if an adherent tried to murder me :)

You completely failed to understand my comment: if the Constitutional freedom of religion is too broad why do you accept the Constitution to be ignored with such decisions instead of fixing the problem, the Constitutional text? In your example it is clear the problem is the Constitution text being too broad/generic. SCOTUS is not there to rewrite or cut the text, people voting can do that.

There are many parts of the constitution both parties would like to improve but that is not possible in the current environment.

Conditions are in general meant to be broad so the last for a long time, and congress can implement laws around the details. The Supreme Court in the us can strike down laws if they believe they are counter to the constitution.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be distinguishing between "essential" activities and "constitutionally-protected" activities. They are different axes with only some overlap. Not everything that is constitutionally-protected is essential, and not everything that is essential is constitutionally protected. For example, the right to food is not guaranteed by the constitution but we can probably agree that stores providing food to the public…

As we know, rights are not absolute. US law has developed such that commercial activities, including commercial speech can be subject to more limitations than non-commercial activities. Also, US law has also generally held that political and religious activities are the most protected. This doesn't mean that anything goes, it is just that the government needs a really good reason to interfere. If Covid-19 rules restr…

> If Covid-19 rules restrict religious practices more than some commercial activities I think we have a problem.

Oh come on. It's OK to pick and choose which activities are more important than a health rule -- a doctor or a plumber clearly should be permitted to perform some necessary activities or life would be at greater risk. And the law parses apart the cases: you can get respiratory care or chemotherapy but not plastic surgery. The plumber can fix a backed up sewer pipe but (for a while) not do new construction, etc.

Perhaps your note was accidentally misworded. If they restrict religious practices that are physically identical to commercial activities that are not restricted then we would have a problem. If concerts were allowed but not churches that would be a problem. If outdoor concerts were allowed but not indoor ones, then outdoor religious congregation should be allowed even if indoor equivalent is not. Etc.

But nobody, including the plaintiffs, is making that assertion.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be distinguishing between "essential" activities and "constitutionally-protected" activities. They are different axes with only some overlap. Not everything that is constitutionally-protected is essential, and not everything that is essential is constitutionally protected. For example, the right to food is not guaranteed by the constitution but we can probably agree that stores providing food to the public…

I just find it weird that nobody is bringing up Matthew 6:5. I can hardly imagine any example of "praying to be seen by men" purer than the politicization of opening churches right now. I have this feeling like, surely the cognitive dissonance will hit any minute now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:5

You are forgetting Matthew 18, 19-20:

"Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

There is also the idea of Communion, which is a religious gathering instituted by Jesus himself, in Luke 22. Paul also exhorts believers not to "forsake the assembling of themselves" in Hebrews 10.

Communal gathering as a church is actually a religious doctrine. The details of how one should do so is really a thorny issue, and the state saying "only so many may do so" is perilously close to breaching separation. It has nothing to do with praying loud to appear religious in public to get praise from men.

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