Earlier quoted context omitted.
Re #2: the figure gets thrown around a lot. But who is outside, naked, at noon for fifteen minutes? It's really hard to translate that to anything meaningful or actionable. Here's a tool that can help calculate useful exposure depending on your location/time of year. Doesn't take clothing into account however.. https://fastrt.nilu.no/VitD-ez_quartMEDandMED_v2.html
The point is that being outside naked at noon every day for 15 minutes wouldn't hurt you. Therefore, a daily dose of 20,000 IU / day won't hurt you. Therefore, a 5000 IU supplement every day won't hurt you either.
Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
111–120 of 156 posts
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#112I'm surprised the article barely mentions Vitamin K, which is needed along with Vitamin D - D to mobilize the calcium and K2 to put it into the right place. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5613455/
There are some interesting discussions about Vit K and Covid, basically Vit K promotes coagulation but it seems that its deficiency is associated with the coagulation issues seen in Covid patients. And it might as well be that the correlation is inverted (that is, the development of coagulation troubles might cause low Vit K)
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#113One difficulty in determining if vitamin D actually helps with COVID is determining if vitamin D levels are directly affecting outcomes or whether they are a proxy for something else. For example: are low levels a proxy for people who don't go outside much and therefore don't exercise? That's a huge problem in medical studies generally.
There is strong evidence of this, summarized: https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure... Huge inverse correlation between Vitamin D and all-cause mortality -- but almost complete failure of vitamin D supplementation vs. cancer, heart disease and stroke. What? Turns out that sunlight produces vitamin D -- and a host of other difficult to detect artifacts, which seem to be at the root of the reduct…
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another data point: 5000 IU of D3 daily for years, after testing initially at around 20 ng/dL (iir the units c); this spring my level from a blood test was >90 in the first test since then. It seems like taking 10000 IU instead would've been overkill for me. I supplement K2 and Mg also (plus a few unrelated things). I also get sick less, though I made enough other changes I can't tell whether to credit the supplement…
What skin condition was helped? I have a skin condition that is anecdotally helped by supplementation but I see few or no controlled trials.
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#115In the title of this piece, analogizing to chloroquine is irresponsible. A high % of readers will take the message to stay away from D and never read the rest.
I'm glad he has a similar top-level rec as me: Take all measures to avoid deficiency, probably by D3 of 2000-4000 IU/day (I'd prefer 4000). The piece unfortunately fails to make the other most important top-level comment: that all COVID-19 patients should have their D levels tested and more data on D & COVID-19 severity should be published urgently (possibly based on records that already exist). And all clinical trials for COVID-19 should be testing D levels as well.
Overall, this piece is not emphatic enough that vitamin D may significantly help during this COVID-19 crisis.
Several important responses to some of the top material in this piece:
The NYT article dismissing Holick is terrible and not worthy of being linked at the top of this piece. I won't go into the point-by-point criticisms of this article, but it's not worthy of a piece that is supposed to be weighing evidence.
The bullet point claiming the COVID-19 association could still be a fluke does not adequately acknowledge the causal aspects of the evidence: Many RCTs on D supplementation helping viral/respiratory infections (Martineau et al BMJ 2017), D causally affecting rate of aging in roundworms, causal inference model overwhelming supporting D's role as causal, studies on the correlation correcting for age, sex, comorbidities, and reverse causality, and causal mechanistic biological arguments. Some portion of the strength of the correlation seen in the 1000+ patient cases published in preprint studies so far may be due to other causal factors, but the causal evidence so far makes it very unlikely for the full extent of the large effect size seen to all be a fluke.
The piece wrote: "A healthy full body exposure to sunlight can generate 25000 IU of vitamin D in one sitting, without getting burned. 2000-4000 IU daily of D3 supplements will also work." No. People wrongly believing that some sun gives them enough is probably one of the causes of widespread deficiency. From my review, in the "Practical considerations for avoiding D levels that are too low" section: There are several studies showing that even a lot of sun exposure leaves many people with insufficient D levels. For one list of studies see Tsiaras & Weinstock, “Factors influencing vitamin D status” Acta dermato-venereologica, 2011: “Studies in Hawaii (97), South Florida (98), Southern Arizona (99), Brazil (100), rural India (101) and Queensland, Australia (102) found that significant proportions of the study populations had low vitamin D levels despite abundant sun exposure.” For example, in the Hawaiian study, 51% of the 93 young, non-obese adults had D4hr/day) in the sun at latitude 21 degrees. The variability in both seasonal sun intensity and daily hours of exposure for any given individual provide yet another reason that testing blood levels would be helpful. These studies show that even those who seem to get a lot of sun exposure should probably supplement if not testing to ensure adequacy.
Also, the bullet point summary in this piece fails to point out the history of the RDA being set too low by statistical mistake. (Which I've updated my review to include. The story is crazy---the original data used to set the RDA would have resulting in 8000 IU/day if it had been analyzed correctly.)
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point is that being outside naked at noon every day for 15 minutes wouldn't hurt you. Therefore, a daily dose of 20,000 IU / day won't hurt you. Therefore, a 5000 IU supplement every day won't hurt you either.
is this just an extrapolation or does my body actually constantly produce the same amount of vitamin D if i sit in the sun even if I don't have a deficit? Because usually phisiological processes are in some kind of equilibrium and regulated, so it's not straightforward to compare it to supplements.
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#117Did my masters on Vitamin D - It is very difficult to extract CLINICALLY RELEVANT information from retrospective epidemiological studies. However, there a a few things that are clear: 1. Calcium absorption from the intestine increases with vitamin D supplementation dose up to around 8-10,000 IU D3 daily. 2. 15 minutes of full body exposure in noon sun is equivalent to a dose of ~20,000 IU D3 3. There are few cases of…
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
And your statement is wiser because? I've been taking vitamin d3 10K IU/day for 10 years and it has allowed my blood V-D3 levels to go from 12 ng/mL to ~50 which is within normal range. The NIH recommended dose has been going up over the last 2 decades starting at 400 IU and now 4,000 IU as we learn more and more about it's effectiveness.
The NIH states that 4000 IU is the tolerable upper intake: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessiona... If you are rounding down your vitamin D status then it is currently at what the NIH say should be avoided. Have you consulted with a medical professional about your vitamin d status? 10k IU/day can be great when someone's level is 12, but it's not a maintenance dosage once at healthy levels.
"A statistical error in the estimation of the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for vitamin D was recently discovered; in a correct analysis of the data used by the Institute of Medicine, it was found that 8895 IU/d was needed for 97.5% of individuals to achieve values ≥50 nmol/L. Another study confirmed that 6201 IU/d was needed to achieve 75 nmol/L and 9122 IU/d was needed to reach 100 nmol/L. The largest meta-analysis ever conducted of studies published between 1966 and 2013 showed that 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels 1 year of age, and around 8000 IU for young adults and thereafter. Actions are urgently needed to protect the global population from vitamin D deficiency."
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
And, try to get those things from foods. It can't be said enough: Fruits and Vegetables have extremely high densities of all your minerals and vitamins. I've calculated all their densities here based on USDA nutritional info: https://kale.world/c All the results are normalized to 200 calories for easy comparison. When you get your vitamins/minerals from a pill, you run the risk of your body not absorbing it because t…
> Fruits and Vegetables have extremely high densities of all your minerals and vitamins. I don't think they have B12, you need to get that from animal sources or a pill.
People used to get B12 from the bacteria in the soil and the plants we eat. Not, anymore.
So, yes, you could eat some meat. B12 is present in very high concentrations in a lot of sea food.
Re: Vitamin D: the New Covid-19 Chloroquine?
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Fruits and Vegetables have extremely high densities of all your minerals and vitamins. I don't think they have B12, you need to get that from animal sources or a pill.
There are mushrooms which contain B12. Or you could go with soymilk, almond milk, etc. Those typically are fortified with B12. People used to get B12 from the bacteria in the soil and the plants we eat. Not, anymore. So, yes, you could eat some meat. B12 is present in very high concentrations in a lot of sea food.
When I Google "mushroom B12" it seems to suggest mushrooms have almost none.
People used to get B12 by eating meat (which I use generally to also include seafood).