Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because that's exactly what it is? It is literally one of the main points that people in Hong Kong have been protesting for
If you think that the US is doing this for the protesters, I have a defense contract to sell you. This is in retaliation for China breaking international agreements.
Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
111–120 of 155 posts
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
The founding fathers of the US did not write the US constitution with practical freedom in mind. They wrote it with the principles of freedom as sacred. The battles they fought weren't for being able to buy groceries or walk the streets. They fought the battles over things like the right to not being taxed, to not be under the bank of England's monetary regulations, to have their own voice in the political system and…
Well, I ask again -- the specific proposed laws under discussion don't touch on any of those principles. They're about sedition, secession, national security, terrorism, etc. We have laws about those things too in the US. So is this actually an argument about the influence / authority of China and the extent of their power, or about the specific laws being passed? Or is it about making sure the 27 years left on the c…
China does not want to see any of this happen today, because mainland China is still developing. But theoretically, once China has developed, it would no longer need an independent and semi-free or semi-autonomous Hong Kong any longer, and Hong Kong could be merged into China with relatively little impact to China as a whole. Peacefully or otherwise.
The United States and the west generally do not want to see any of this occur, for reasons that should be painfully obvious.
So nothing about either China's actions towards Hong Kong, the people of Hong Kong's desires, or America's response here has anything to do with the freedoms of individual people today, China's current influence, or current laws proposed or being passed by any of the three participating societies.
Its about what everyone knows is going to be passed in a year, or 5, 10, or 40. The play from Hong Kong and the west is too draw out the unification period as long as possible, because you never know what could happen in the future. China feels the opposite.
This is happening now, because China has been pulling democratic governors out of Hong Kong legislative bodies by force. And because they are currently setting up a secret police network, legally, in Hong Kong, to enforce their power structure there, the same way it is done in mainland China. That means, that regardless of what "laws" Hong Kong passes, Hong Kong is no longer independent.
And America is responding that if China is going to rule Hong Kong as part of its mainland country, and abandon the rule of law that currently exists in Hong Kong, then America will no longer respect Hong Kong as a rule-of-law based, independent, society. Quite simply, it will no longer be safe for the west to invest money into Hong Kong, the way it has in the past.
This is both good self-preservation for the west, as well as making good on what, previously to today, was one a limited number of good reasons for China to respect Hong Kong's separate legal system and status. Theoretically, China could, tomorrow, roll back their pressure on Hong Kong, and America would roll back this announcement, though I rather doubt that either country is incentivized for that outcome.
As for your last two questions:
1 - Internal Chinese politics. I can't imagine you would ever get a correct answer about this on the internet. China does not work like the west. No one who understands it well is going to discuss it in a public forum (you understand why?), unless, possibly, you're talking about a western academic.
2 - Because she is legitimately a stooge, in the fundamental sense of the word. Its worth looking up Hong Kong's governmental structure. Its not a real democracy. Its more or less what you would expect a government to look like, if the wealthiest people in a country all knew each other, and the country wanted a democracy, but the wealthy wanted to ensure that they always held all the positions of power, with limited accountability. Hong Kong is only, really, democratic compared to China. There's a reason the protests were demanding universal elections... Hong Kong doesn't have them. So Hong Kong's government is just doing what it has been designed from the start to do: give the Hong Kong people some semblance of democracy, while simultaneously bowing to the most powerful people in the society, who are, increasingly, placed there by China.
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the post-nuclear world economic pressure is the only tool we have to deal with bad actors. It's why we sanction North Korea, Iran, and Russia.
It's a very bad tool for that particular job, as we discovered in Iraq -- it hurts the most vulnerable members of the society, and does very little to the elites making the policies we don't like.
It remains to be seen if sanctioning China (partially) could bring about political change, as CCP is endorsed within China mostly for economic growth in the past three decades.
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#114And the real losers in this fight here are Hongkongese citizens, who fought for their freedom and ultimately are losing it, on top of facing an economic crisis.
As I genuinely asked in my comment separately in the thread, what practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in Hong Kong that would not be considered crimes in the US (or Hong Kong prior to this), for example?
One thing being fought over is disrespecting the Chinese national anthem. Sure, I might not be “the average person” but that’s the point, small deviations are criminalized.
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see, you meant true independence as a nation? Hong Kong has a very complex history and culture about independence. To be brief, majority of Hong Kongers never wanted independence as a country. (It's weird but there was a split of people being pro-China and pro-UK) The thought of Hong Kong independence has been around for long but didn't become major topic and a significant opinion until recent years (after 2014-201…
I mean true Democracy and government and representation by the people. There’s two way’s to characterize the protests: I don’t like China or I want Democracy. PRC put strong pressure against Democracy in HK back during British rule, probably because it would set a precedent for after the handover. And despite the last few British governors pushing to increase Democratic processes many efforts for that were stalled by…
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because that's exactly what it is? It is literally one of the main points that people in Hong Kong have been protesting for
If you think that the US is doing this for the protesters, I have a defense contract to sell you. This is in retaliation for China breaking international agreements.
Of course the US wouldn't have done this had it been against the US' interests.
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#117The sad fact of the matter is that Xi has already calculated that and deemed it an acceptable loss in the name of "national security."
I'm kind of wondering if he will step down next year, or find a reason to keep going. (I don't know what the constitutional arrangements are, but assume that he can only have a single 10 year term)
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gov. Jared Polis (D-CO) liked a tweet this week where someone proposed a charter city for Hong Kong in Colorado - the thread shows why that's probably a bad idea, but clearly surprising levels of support outside the Libertarian think tank world for charter cities in the US: https://twitter.com/ariarmstrong/status/1264628307586248704
I think the major moral objection people have to charter cities is that they feel exploitative of the host nation. Proposals seem to take the form "we'll take some rich Westerners, and put them in a host nation where they don't have to follow the local rules, and the host nation will benefit because the Westerners will hire them for labor" - it's very hard to distinguish this from colonialism. Few people think it's a…
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#119And the real losers in this fight here are Hongkongese citizens, who fought for their freedom and ultimately are losing it, on top of facing an economic crisis.
As I genuinely asked in my comment separately in the thread, what practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in Hong Kong that would not be considered crimes in the US (or Hong Kong prior to this), for example?
Stretching a bit, we call it the freedom from fear (of unjust prosecution), which is the—arguably justified—distrust of the rule by law in China (not the rule of law that Hong Kong previously had). Note that Hong Kong people are using “Freedom from Fear” [1] differently from how US is using it [2].
Chinese courts work very differently from Hong Kong ones: they swing with politics. Many people have been—as perceived by Hong Kongers—unjustly detained or prosecuted (such as the milk powder incidents [3], the two Canadians in China after the Huawei case [4], or the more recent whistleblower Li Wenliang). And those people, in some cases, are sued for charges such as spying or subversion, which is the main theme of the national security law.
Given that Chinese agents extracted Hong Kongers in the Causeway Bay Books disappearances [5], Hong Kongers fear that the new national security law (which allows state agents to police Hong Kong [6]) means that Hong Kongers (and perhaps foreigners) may face state agents extraction from Hong Kong. To many Hong Kongers, voicing out for social injustice could mean instability in China, and could mean theft of state secret or subversion as CCP see it.
Hence it is limiting freedom of speech.
[1]: “Freedom from Fear” is a slogan in Hong Kong protests, see for example this image https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/181114165731-hong-kon...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_from_fear
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
[4]: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spav...
[5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
[6]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-to-allow-state-security-a...
Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy
#120Related: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officially-declares-that-ho... "U.S. Officially Declares That Hong Kong Is No Longer Autonomous WASHINGTON—The State Department has officially determined that Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said in a statement Wednesday that holds implications for the future of economic ties and could lead to sanctions against China. The State Dep…
Not that I disagree with the act, but I love how politicians are trying to frame destroying Hong Kong's economy as supporting "Human Rights and Democracy."