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Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

blog.timescale.com

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Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#111

Post by ensignavenger »

eloff wrote: post #4

This is an interesting window into their business model. This could be a purely an altruistic decision, which businesses sometimes do, contrary to popular belief. More likely it's a bet that wider adoption from making the clustered version free will drive more revenue through their managed database as a service offering. Which shows that their non-OSI open-source license is actually leading to more code and features…

I think you greatly misunderstand the implications of the Timescale License. Others have pointed out additional restrictions, but as to the restriction you mention, if it were the only additional restriction:

If I build my product on such software, host it on the official service, and latter their business model changes to no longer be a good fit for my business model (or if my model changes), I am stuck hosting the fork myself- I can't pay some one else to host it anymore. Now lets say that I am not alone- but there are several other customers in this situation- we can't band together to create a fork with a thriving, healthy community, including hosting options.

Avoiding vendor lock-in is my number one reason for choosing Open Source software! If your non-open source "Diet" Open license license leads to vendor lock-in, it is not much better to me than any other proprietary license.

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#112

Post by mfreed »

lukevp wrote: post #104
pritambaral wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never ... _You_ may not have, but plenty of us have. Although, it's not as important when or how many times one has _needed_ to exercise one's freedoms, as it is to have them. But yes, plenty of us open-source users and supporters have exercised this very freedom. In fact, quite a lot of open-source contributions happen _because_ of this freedom: someone has an itch, they scratch it, and _then_ they upstream…

Is that not possible under this license, to upstream a change? It sounds like you can’t put the change into production without it first being accepted, but not that you couldn’t contribute in other ways. I get the spirit of your argument. However, the issue is that companies are not able to make open-source compatible, permissive licenses that allow commercial use due to the new reality that creating a service and su…

Absolutely possibly to upstream changes. People have, and we welcome contributions:

https://github.com/timescale/timescaledb/blob/master/CONTRIB...

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#113

Post by JeremyNT »

akulkarni wrote: post #16
eloff wrote: post #4

This is an interesting window into their business model. This could be a purely an altruistic decision, which businesses sometimes do, contrary to popular belief. More likely it's a bet that wider adoption from making the clustered version free will drive more revenue through their managed database as a service offering. Which shows that their non-OSI open-source license is actually leading to more code and features…

(Timescale CEO and post author) You are spot on. Before the Timescale License, we were left with a tough decision: do we open-source a feature so that everyone can have it for free OR do we close a feature so that the mega-clouds don't have access to it? We didn't like either of those options, which is why we created the Timescale License, which allows us to offer capabilities for free (and make the source code avail…

Hi there!

We use and love Timescale, so we've been paying attention to this feature. We currently use the open source version and it's very nice.

Would you mind clarifying a bit, because the blog post doesn't really explain: how much of TS do you expect to remain Open Source versus proprietary? Is the idea here that you will switch the entire project to this new license (i.e., this means you're killing the open source project), or is the idea that you'll continue to work on the open source version (but with the enterprise functionality now available under the new license)?

The omission of this really important information in the blog post makes me suspect that this is, in effect, the end of OSS Timescale. I'd love to be reading that wrong! If the core will remain open source, you should consider mentioning that in the post.

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#114

Post by pritambaral »

lukevp wrote: post #104
pritambaral wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never ... _You_ may not have, but plenty of us have. Although, it's not as important when or how many times one has _needed_ to exercise one's freedoms, as it is to have them. But yes, plenty of us open-source users and supporters have exercised this very freedom. In fact, quite a lot of open-source contributions happen _because_ of this freedom: someone has an itch, they scratch it, and _then_ they upstream…

Is that not possible under this license, to upstream a change? It sounds like you can’t put the change into production without it first being accepted, but not that you couldn’t contribute in other ways. I get the spirit of your argument. However, the issue is that companies are not able to make open-source compatible, permissive licenses that allow commercial use due to the new reality that creating a service and su…

1. I have to wait until upstream accepts it before I can use my own change in my own production.

2. I have to hope upstream accepts my change at all.

3. I have to give up the rights to my change if upstream accepts it at all.

High risk of vendor lock-in, and no right-to-repair.

----

> However, the issue is that companies are not able to ...

That's fine. I'm not asking any company to do something. I stating my reasons why I can't use what the company is offering. It sounds like what the company wants is to not license the code, but to sign a contract with me for a service. Would you sign a contract you don't like?

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#115

Post by jeffdavis »

akulkarni wrote: post #16
eloff wrote: post #4

This is an interesting window into their business model. This could be a purely an altruistic decision, which businesses sometimes do, contrary to popular belief. More likely it's a bet that wider adoption from making the clustered version free will drive more revenue through their managed database as a service offering. Which shows that their non-OSI open-source license is actually leading to more code and features…

(Timescale CEO and post author) You are spot on. Before the Timescale License, we were left with a tough decision: do we open-source a feature so that everyone can have it for free OR do we close a feature so that the mega-clouds don't have access to it? We didn't like either of those options, which is why we created the Timescale License, which allows us to offer capabilities for free (and make the source code avail…

Did you discuss the license with any free/open source software organization to get their input? Are other products adopting similar licenses, and if so, what are the differences?

I'm not fundamentally opposed to any deviation in licensing. But I am much less inclined to use software if the license hasn't been reviewed/endorsed/used by others widely.

Also, I'm curious if you considered just addressing the license to anyone excluding $COMPANY_YOU_ARE_WORRIED_ABOUT. Not sure what the implications of that would be, but it would be interesting. Realistically, a startup has to prove itself in a relatively short period of time, and in that short period of time there are generally very few competitors (typically zero or one) that threaten your business model itself. If you have 10 competitors that actually threaten your business model, your business has already proven itself ;-)

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#116

Post by hinkley »

amenod wrote: post #103
pritambaral wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and make the source code available It's available to _see_, but not to "prepare, compile, and test Derivative Works of the TSL Licensed Software Source Code" in a production environment, as per your license's clause 2.1 (d). That's a pretty big departure from open-source; and a bit discouraging for use by non-mega-cloud business interests too. One of the important reasons I personally use and support open-source is…

This. I don't care if I can see the source code if I can't actually _do_ anything with it. If I can't run my modifications in production, it doesn't guard me against vendor lock-in and it doesn't give me the right-to-repair. So what's the benefit? Note that I am not arguing for OSS licences, but something like the Commons Clause (use freely, even for commercial use, repair as you wish, just don't sell) seems much mor…

I do.

I don't think Java would have gotten anywhere if not for the fact that most of the source code was available. Trying to divine information about Windows from the header files was excruciatingly painful.

Being able to step into the code and figure out why it doesn't like 0 in the third argument was a massive boost to my efficacy as a coder. I could add a guard and then file a very precise bug report to get the issue fixed.

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#117

Post by eeZah7Ux »

__s wrote: post #60
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly the pedantry around the definition of Open Source, which I understand, is incredibly nauseating. Sure, this isn't Open Source by "the definition", but it's close enough if you squint. The difference doesn't impact almost anyone. Are you or someone you love impacted by this licensing decision? Throw in an expiry date, dual licensing (pay to play seems more than fair) and I'm content. History be damned. I'm so…

Yep. I've been putting code out for free (MIT) for over a decade. I'm an open source developer. But I'll decide what gatekeeping I participate in for myself thank you Maybe we just need to have "little O" open source. Unless someone's saying "Open Source" don't get in on splitting these hairs

I'd rather have "big F" Free Software: something that ensures that the many efforts I put into development end up benefiting the end users.

Right now middlemen are making billions and end users get vendor lock-in.

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#118

Post by pritambaral »

mfreed wrote: post #112
lukevp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not possible under this license, to upstream a change? It sounds like you can’t put the change into production without it first being accepted, but not that you couldn’t contribute in other ways. I get the spirit of your argument. However, the issue is that companies are not able to make open-source compatible, permissive licenses that allow commercial use due to the new reality that creating a service and su…

Absolutely possibly to upstream changes. People have, and we welcome contributions: https://github.com/timescale/timescaledb/blob/master/CONTRIB...

> Absolutely possibly to upstream changes.

The problem isn't that changes can be upstreamed. The problem is that that is a necessary pre-condition before I can even use them.

In addition, what I say in my comment[0] beside yours remains valid.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23275370

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#119

Post by valyala »

petr25102018 wrote: post #83

Why should someone use TimescaleDB over ClickHouse for time-series/analytics workloads?

If you use PostgreSQL, then it feels natural to add TimescaleDB extension and start storing time series or analytical data there alongside other relational data.

If you need effectively storing trillions of rows and performing real-time OLAP queries over billions of rows, then it is better to use ClickHouse [1], since it requires 10x-100x less compute resources (mostly CPU, disk IO and storage space) than PostgreSQL for such workloads.

If you need effectively storing and querying big amounts of time series data, then take a look at VictoriaMetrics [2]. It is built on ideas from ClickHouse, but it is optimized solely for time series workloads. It has comparable performance to ClickHouse, while it is easier to setup and manage comparing to ClickHouse. And it supports MetricsQL [3] - a query language, which is much easier to use comparing to SQL when dealing with time series data. MetricsQL is based on PromQL [4] from Prometheus.

[1] https://clickhouse.tech/

[2] https://github.com/VictoriaMetrics/VictoriaMetrics

[3] https://github.com/VictoriaMetrics/VictoriaMetrics/wiki/Metr...

[4] https://medium.com/@valyala/promql-tutorial-for-beginners-9a...

Re: Multi-node TimescaleDB is now free

#120

Post by hagen1778 »

petr25102018 wrote: post #83

Why should someone use TimescaleDB over ClickHouse for time-series/analytics workloads?

That's a good question! Especially considering these overwhelming benchmarks [1] made via Timescale TSBS [2].

[1] https://www.altinity.com/blog/clickhouse-for-time-series

[2] https://github.com/timescale/tsbs

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