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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#111

Post by bananabreakfast »

anon102010 wrote: post #48
remarkEon wrote: post #33

That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission since paying a few grand for prep sessions (for piece of mind, mostly) on what's a pretty darn good measure of academic aptitude is a waste of everyone's time, now that the test is rendered meaningless ... until California develops their own. I'm su…

Haha.. I think you have this backwards! If you think money can buy a good SAT score - go make some. Reality? Much easier to pay for a trip to "volunteer" in africa or at the local hospital, get on sports teams etc etc. If you have $$ being head of club X is a cakewalk! I had life changing SAT scores, and while prep helps, that slacker kid isn't getting 1600

It's 2400 now btw. There are three sections

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#112

Post by MattGaiser »

henryfjordan wrote: post #87
mc32 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I’d like to see is freezing grade inflation. A more normal distribution curve for grades rather than an abnormal amount being rated A/A+.

I think that universities can normalize a student's grades using their high school's distribution to level playing field amongst all schools, meaning the grade inflation isn't even working. The UC system is going to have more than enough data to figure out those distributions.

Plenty of schools fiddle with that or just refuse to provide the data.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#113

Post by anon102010 »

spekcular wrote: post #83
nimbius wrote: post #57

Ibram X Kendi has an excellent book, "Stamped from the Beginning" that does a great job of explaining how SAT and ACT tests were really only ever meaningful as a barrier to class mobility for blacks in the United states. in the 21st century it does the same thing. By keeping test prep out of public school and forcing takers to invest up to a thousand dollars on a classroom instruction for the test (which often promis…

I'm not sure this take comports with the facts. Test prep materials are readily available at most public libraries, and even professional prep courses produce marginal gains (smaller than the test-retest measurement error). The claim that rich white people are leveraging their wealth to buy a secret "one weird trick" that instantly boosts their scores is simply false. I am happy to provide citations if you're interes…

The idea that wealth won't buy other methods of access, now with no embarrassingly low test score - is hard to beleive. The rich private school WILL give donor kids X all A's. At least in the past the SAT score filtered out the super lazy donor brats.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#114

Post by gen3 »

Budabellly wrote: post #99

Is there any way that it could make sense to require reporting the # of hours a student spends in SAT/ACT tutoring, whether it be private, through your school, or other? As a required field on the common app, this could help in making admissions decisions. There are so many reasons using standardized tests for admissions isn't fair across the board, but perhaps understanding how much prep went into the test would pro…

I can’t see how that makes anything more fair?

Some people are just bad test takers. What good does it make to penalize them for studying and trying to do the best they can do? Someone with a learning difference would be at a disadvantage.

Also, why wouldn’t I just lie?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#115

Post by m0zg »

121789 wrote: post #94
m0zg wrote: post #49

Abolish entrance exams entirely. Replace them with the exams at the end of first semester coupled with some rudimentary requirement that e.g. if you want to do math your high school math grade is OK. Make the first semester de-facto "remedial education" oriented and vastly reduce fees. Basically start with a giant, relatively inexpensive MOOC (possibly joint with other schools to reduce overhead) and then filter that…

is your scenario not already currently adequately served by going to a community college and transferring to a state college?

Such a path has significant stigma associated with it, so no.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#116

Post by charlesju »

remarkEon wrote: post #33

That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission since paying a few grand for prep sessions (for piece of mind, mostly) on what's a pretty darn good measure of academic aptitude is a waste of everyone's time, now that the test is rendered meaningless ... until California develops their own. I'm su…

I think you're underestimating how much of the inequality has been baked in by Junior year of High School. 16 years of living a life where parents and teachers nurture the students for maximum growth is going to be easily reflected in any way you want to measure aptitude against someone that grew up in a rough environment.

From the article it seems like the UC are going to develop their own test, that will further divide those with resources that can study and prep for multiple tests and those that cannot.

The issues with the diversity in the UC system are rooted in a much deeper level of inequality in society that probably cannot be fixed with these band aids.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#117

Post by zamfi »

applecrazy wrote: post #90
anon102010 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't have a tutor, I got relatively bad grades in school (was boared?) - SAT was a game changer for me - got me into a good school -> learned some stuff -> making great money. The question is not, is the SAT bad, it is, what about the new system will be better and fairer. The other factor - this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools. The Harvard case really revealed how legacy…

> this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the Times article about this yesterday. I also applied to college last year, so I have a pretty recent knowledge of the process. I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutel…

> I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutely false.

No one is claiming it's "impossible", and I don't want to minimize your experience -- 20 years ago, I also scored 99th percentile on the SAT with only $15 spent on practice books -- but it's absolutely not the norm.

The reality is that a SAT scores correlate with wealth. Both directly, in that while you and I may not need tutoring to improve our scores, there are also millions of kids out there who do benefit from expensive tutoring, and millions of kids who would benefit, but don't because they can't afford it. But also indirectly: I'd be willing to bet you don't come from a low-SES background: i.e., living in poverty, unable to afford basic needs, parents or guardians infrequently present, with unsteady income, etc. (For the record, I don't have this background.) If I'm wrong about your background, you are truly an exception, not merely in the 1% of SAT scorers.

Using the SAT in college admissions means that admissions is biasing -- at the margins -- towards, of those students who would benefit from expensive tutoring, the subset who can afford it.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#118

Post by bcatanzaro »

This is a great victory for privileged kids that can now rely more than ever on coaching to have the most awesome extra-curriculars and most convincing essays. Truly a brave step to ensure that poor kids can't sneak through the admissions system using their smarts. I expect this will lead to higher donations to the UC system in the future.

Seriously, considering stopping donations this year - I'm a UC alumnus and this makes me sad.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#119

Post by ryandrake »

_23sd wrote: post #61
hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

I worry that "holistic" admissions in universities with highly competitive admissions are already disadvantaging groups that aren't culturally aligned with university administrators and their donors: Asian Americans, people from the South and rural areas regardless of race, and people brought up in religious households where most time spent on "extracurricular activities" is church-related. I personally think that pe…

Reminds me of the nebulous catch-all “cultural fit” criteria that allows a company to justify not hiring someone who, while they measurably fit with the job, the company just doesn’t want to hire due to some feeling or unconscious bias they have. When you remove quantitative measurements, no matter how flawed the measurements are, you risk further dooming discriminated-against groups.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#120

Post by gamesbrainiac »

Preparing for the SAT, I have to say that it was one of the weirdest tests I've ever taken. I don't think it does a good job at predicting future outcomes for students, compared to how they did in their school work.

For most people outside of the US system, who want to go to US universities, it is an extra (and expensive) hassle when you've already taken internationally accredited qualifications like the A-Levels or the IB. I'd much rather trust something that has assessed you over a couple of years over something that just asses how well you can cram for something.

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