Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#111

Post by kerkeslager » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

ikt wrote: post #79

I just want to say I don't like this article at all. It makes minimalism seem like a rigid ideology specifically for white males who command poor people to build and craft expensive housing and objects for them (and many of those objects are in the shape of penises?) A whole lot of discussion on random art and murder from one of the people who made that style of art. I thought this was going to be about minimalism, w…

My advice is to just stop identifying as a minimalist, and find a better word to describe your identity. The thing is, the article is describing a group of people who self-identify as "minimalist", but you, along with ten other groups that are nothing like you OR the minimalists in the article OR each other, all identify as "minimalist". It's just not a word with any coherent meaning. The result is that every time anyone talks about minimalism, there's some criticism leveled against minimalism, and then everyone's argument is "that's not minimalism, THIS is minimalism". It's an endless circle of semantic arguments.

I at one time described myself as minimalist, but now I would describe myself as an anticonsumerist. It's not a perfect term either, but I haven't gotten in any stupid arguments about it.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#112

Post by smoe » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #95

smoe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is, if you wish to combine self reliance and minimalism, you essentially must embrace a life of poverty. Why? If you take minimalism to the extreme, and keep stripping away until reaching the bare essentials of living, then the basic tools and materials are what you left with. It would be "against" minimalism (which is not well defined anyway) to buy say a chain saw because you think you might need it o…

> If you want to be self reliant without having a lot of money to waste, you'll have to practice minimalism. Not the inner city hipster version of it, but being mindful of what the utility and value of all the things you have is. No you don't. A big pile of junk is no drain on your self-reliance; if you're living in the kind of place where you can even begin to hope to produce your own food then space is not going to…

Its not about whether to have a pile of junk or not, but its utility.

My fathers side of the family is all farmers for generations. They piled up a lot of junk and reused continously around the properties. But those weren't just random piles, but sorted and to a degree inventoried and cleaned so it can be used efficiently.

They could e.g. plan ahead for new projects how much can be build from scrap vs new materials.

Sure just throwing stuff on a pile doesnt cost you anything, but i dont see how you are going to reuse that stuff somewhat efficiently later without upfront assigning some value to different types of junk

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#113

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

_0w8t wrote: post #89

wiz21c wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> As I got more serious about cooking I donated a lot of extra pans and doo-dads. Previously, I would just collect things and as I learned more about what made something good and why, I could narrow down to 1 or 2 higher quality items (knives, pans, etc). As I learned more techniques, I needed fewer specialty items. Same experience here. Conclusion : if we'd educate people better on how to cook rather than showing t…

That is a very nice summary! By then I recently discovered utility of a special bag to bake potatoes in the microwave . It does work even if takes longer than promised 5 minutes, but the result is very tasty and I have no idea how I would reproduce it in an owen.

[deleted]

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#114

Post by jhoechtl » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

Minimalsim is only true when you are substanitaly reducing consumption, essentially where your live is not iterating around money but around lending, helping each other without money by helping back etc. Lets and barter systems might help. Once you arrive at that point you will suddenly feel the society fighting against you.

Society accepted minimalsims is a kind of minimalsim where your net consumption remains where it is now.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#115

Post by anotheracct » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #107

dageshi wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... You order takeaway. Or you buy ready meals from the store. Or you go to subway. There's plenty of alternatives to actually cooking.

Yeah, it's funny, ordering takeaway all the time is also one of the plenty of alternatives to lighting money on fire.

That's absurd. If you don't like to cook or you aren't good at it, ordering food is not lighting money on fire.

That's like saying that you're lighting money on fire when you play video games or watch tv. You could have just went to the library and rented a book for free. It's the same logic and could be applied to almost any aspect of entertainment or really anything that could ever be considered "extra."

You're lighting money on fire by cooking all that food. Eat rice and chicken broth and take a multivitamin. You're probably getting more nutrients that way than most of America anyway. So anything extra would be lighting money on fire right? That steak cost way more than those eggs, that bread costs more than rice; light the money on fire.

See what I did there?

Just because there is a cheaper alternative out there does not automatically mean that the more expensive option is a waste of money...

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#116

Post by Noos » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #110

lmm wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can paint canvases if you find that fulfilling, you'd just be deliberate about what painting stuff you treated as a possession. Either you'd rent access to a stocked studio, or you'd buy paints and brushes but treat them as ephemeral, or you'd cherish them enough to count them towards your number, and use them frequently. What you wouldn't do is have a pile of painting stuff in your closet that you used five year…

I think you might be missing something. Making art -some sorts more than others - simply requires equipment and stuff. I know this. I make art. I probably have more than some people because I work with different media: Watercolors, acrylics, ink, and so on. I'm prolific, and it all gets used. Just not all at once, you see. This doesn't jive with the folks that brag about minimizing possessions - because it requires s…

I think there's something even more than requiring equipment. Making art requires waste. You cannot be minimalist in creating, you have to be free with paper, paint and ink. The style can be minimalist, but over time you will end up with a library of sketchbooks and have probably burned through tons of supplies.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#117

Post by HammockTester » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #46

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

That's a point that keeps coming back in minimalist and travel communities. People brag about how little they own, and it looks perfect until you ask about the logistics of it. You quickly find out that their minimalist existence is often propped by cheap third-world labour, or by a complete lack of financial planning. They don't own any of the tooks they need to fend for themselves. In a sense, their lifestyle is on…

All of modern society operates this way. It's called division of labor. In order for there to be a software engineer, there have to be people working to feed him, clothe him, build his house, produce his computers, extract energy to power everything, etc.

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#118

Post by ravenstine » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

Everyone here is commenting on minimalism as a lifestyle, but the article seems to be referring to aesthetic minimalism. The two are not necessarily the same.

Also, for people to conclude that minimalism in the lifestyle sense isn't working in some way is pretty bizarre. What exactly is the answer, then? Just giving in to the human impulses of hoarding and consumerism? Whether or not that's the alternative, this conclusion that minimalism as a lifestyle doesn't seem justified in any way. It seems more like a case of "this thing has been trending for the last few years, therefore we have to now point out how bad it is for the sake of it".

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#119

Post by HammockTester » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #32

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Two ideas which often I encounter together yet I have grown to find incompatible are self reliance and minimalism. If you wish to become more self reliant i.e. more able to handle for yourself rather than through another's labor the impositions you create in the world, you will find yourself needing to masters, access and eventual own many more tools and material. My father, a man capable of building or repairing alm…

Self reliance is probably more of an ideal than minimalism. It didn't take much for man to realize he could do more by trusting another than figuring out how to do everything on his own.

I would argue self-reliance is mostly playacting these days. More so than minimalism. Sure you can learn to do basic things like cook for yourself or build furniture but the skills required to live a relatively modern lifestyle go way beyond the capabilities of one person. Are you really going to mine your own iron to smelt into steel and drill for your own oil?

Re: Minimalism conceals the messy realities of society

#120

Post by toddh » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #111

ikt wrote: post #79

I just want to say I don't like this article at all. It makes minimalism seem like a rigid ideology specifically for white males who command poor people to build and craft expensive housing and objects for them (and many of those objects are in the shape of penises?) A whole lot of discussion on random art and murder from one of the people who made that style of art. I thought this was going to be about minimalism, w…

My advice is to just stop identifying as a minimalist, and find a better word to describe your identity. The thing is, the article is describing a group of people who self-identify as "minimalist", but you, along with ten other groups that are nothing like you OR the minimalists in the article OR each other, all identify as "minimalist". It's just not a word with any coherent meaning. The result is that every time an…

Joyist is the new minimalist.