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Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

appleinsider.com

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Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#111

Post by Slartie »

mikhailt wrote: post #96
Slartie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the 4k exports from iMovie or other video/image editor has been proven to be vastly faster on iPad Pro than the fastest Macbook Pro. I'd only be impressed if both used the exact same high-quality software encoder. Most likely the iPad uses the fast but less quality dedicated hardware encoder of the A-Series SoC and the MacBook uses a high quality but slow software-only one, which is what you typically use in any no…

That is true, I don't have any evidence to say that x86 isn't faster or equal against Apple's ARM CPUs or vis versa. They're hard to come by since they're both completely different arch. For JS: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1049082262854094848 It looks like it's not exclusive to Apple's CPU, it's the specific instruction features in ARM 8.3 ISA that makes JS faster. Added here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show…

Thanks for the JS link, I didn't know about that. Though I would hardly call that "Javascript acceleration in hardware". They added a slightly weird float-to-int conversion command that handles overflows a bit different than the normal command, and for lack of better names (and probably because no one else is expected to require that quirky command) they put a "Javascript" into its name.

The perf hit with Filevault became practically zero when Intel added the AES encryption hardware into its chips, which was quite a while ago (and definitely long before the T2 was a thing). I don't remember exactly when that was, but I remember noticing a considerable difference, because I've used FDE since it became available in Filevault. It wasn't even on Macs only, my Windows machines also showed the same improvements using (IIRC) TrueCrypt back in the days.

The dedicated AES hardware extensions in ARM and x86 cores are probably the same logic anyway, so it shouldn't matter too much who decrypts the data. Maybe it's a tiny bit faster with the T2 though, because then the CPU doesn't necessarily have to pipe all the data through it's buses for decryption then. But that is more or less a feature of having a dedicated separate chip for it, and is thus not tied to the question of whether that chip uses ARM or x86 or any other ISA.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#112

Post by sudosysgen »

mikhailt wrote: post #96
Slartie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the 4k exports from iMovie or other video/image editor has been proven to be vastly faster on iPad Pro than the fastest Macbook Pro. I'd only be impressed if both used the exact same high-quality software encoder. Most likely the iPad uses the fast but less quality dedicated hardware encoder of the A-Series SoC and the MacBook uses a high quality but slow software-only one, which is what you typically use in any no…

That is true, I don't have any evidence to say that x86 isn't faster or equal against Apple's ARM CPUs or vis versa. They're hard to come by since they're both completely different arch. For JS: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1049082262854094848 It looks like it's not exclusive to Apple's CPU, it's the specific instruction features in ARM 8.3 ISA that makes JS faster. Added here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show…

I mean, that might depend on the type of encryption used by your computer but there is a ton of documentation about full disk encryption in the Linux world and for over a decade there is almost no performance hit. My experience with a 2008 MBP running Debian was that disk encryption on or off had a very small performance hit.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#113

Post by sudosysgen »

Slartie wrote: post #111
mikhailt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true, I don't have any evidence to say that x86 isn't faster or equal against Apple's ARM CPUs or vis versa. They're hard to come by since they're both completely different arch. For JS: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1049082262854094848 It looks like it's not exclusive to Apple's CPU, it's the specific instruction features in ARM 8.3 ISA that makes JS faster. Added here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show…

Thanks for the JS link, I didn't know about that. Though I would hardly call that "Javascript acceleration in hardware". They added a slightly weird float-to-int conversion command that handles overflows a bit different than the normal command, and for lack of better names (and probably because no one else is expected to require that quirky command) they put a "Javascript" into its name. The perf hit with Filevault b…

>The dedicated AES hardware extensions in ARM and x86 cores are probably the same logic anyway, so it shouldn't matter too much who decrypts the data. Maybe it's a tiny bit faster with the T2 though, because then the CPU doesn't necessarily have to pipe all the data through it's buses for decryption then. But that is more or less a feature of having a dedicated separate chip for it, and is thus not tied to the question of whether that chip uses ARM or x86 or any other ISA.

I don't really see how that would help, CPU i/o has to handle the exact same amount of incoming data encryption or not. Maybe a bit less RAM impact though.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#114

Post by sudosysgen »

mattkevan wrote: post #24
sudosysgen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's Geekbench. The differences in Geekbench for ARM devices and Geekbench for x86 are laughable. Why not compare them in a real life workload like a render on Blender or a kernel compile?

I’d love to read your results rendering something in Blender on the latest A13 chip, if that’s the best way to make a comparison.

I'd love to make such a benchmark, but I won't because I don't have enough money to justify buying a Mac. If you send me one I'll port the rendering engine over and do the benchmark, though.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#115

Post by Slartie »

sudosysgen wrote: post #113
Slartie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the JS link, I didn't know about that. Though I would hardly call that "Javascript acceleration in hardware". They added a slightly weird float-to-int conversion command that handles overflows a bit different than the normal command, and for lack of better names (and probably because no one else is expected to require that quirky command) they put a "Javascript" into its name. The perf hit with Filevault b…

>The dedicated AES hardware extensions in ARM and x86 cores are probably the same logic anyway, so it shouldn't matter too much who decrypts the data. Maybe it's a tiny bit faster with the T2 though, because then the CPU doesn't necessarily have to pipe all the data through it's buses for decryption then. But that is more or less a feature of having a dedicated separate chip for it, and is thus not tied to the questi…

My thought was this: If the CPU decrypts, it touches every byte being read to RAM, and it touches the data again later when it does actual work on it. If it doesn't decrypt, but a chip next to the NAND does the job, the CPU can DMA-transfer the data directly from that chip to RAM. The first time the CPU touches the data is when it actually does some real work on it.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#116

Post by pianoben »

bitwize wrote: post #71
EduardoBautista wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM Macs are one of the things I don't want to be an early adopter of. I am going to stay with Intel as long as possible but I am excited about making the switch to ARM once it's shown to not be a hassle.

This is Apple we're talking about -- and Apple is what other OEMs want to be when they grow up. Not only will the Apple-designed ARM CPUs perform at or above the level of a similarly-specced Intel machine, but the ISA transition will be seamless , with a nearly-invisible Intel binary compatibility layer that does on-the-fly JITing. Otherwise, they simply won't release it at all.

I think you are over-estimating the quality of their software engineering. Maybe ten years ago I would have believed this, but with each macOS release the litany of unforced errors just continues to grow. The advantage Apple derives from owning the whole stack is a bit oversold, at least when it comes to their non-iOS products.

Of course this is anecdotal, but my macbook (made solely from Apple-supplied parts) seems to crash 3x as often as my cobbled-together-from-spare-parts Windows 10 desktop.

> Otherwise, they simply won't release it at all.

Do you think post-Jobs Apple retains that discipline? I'm not sure.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#117

Post by strategarius »

mappu wrote: post #87
strategarius wrote: post #60

I'm curious what Parallels going to do. Running Windows and Linux applications with almost native integration into OSX ecosystem worth a lot, especially with all benefits of hardware virtualization. In theory PC could be virtualized on ARM, however software virtualization only. Going to watch the process. In general, Windows and Linux support ARM as well, not sure if hardware virtualization for ARM exist though

> not sure if hardware virtualization for ARM exist though Virtualization extensions have been available since the Cortex A15 or thereabouts. Linux supports normal KVM on both ARM32 and ARM64 although there are mutterings about dropping support for ARM32. In practice, the hypervisor is usually already grabbed by the platform (e.g. on Android/Snapdragon it's taken by the TrustZone driver and can't be used yourself, ev…

Interesting info, thanks. I also missed the point that Apple is going to design new CPU, they are definitely able to add any hardware virtualization instructions

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#118

Post by p_l »

bitwize wrote: post #71
EduardoBautista wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM Macs are one of the things I don't want to be an early adopter of. I am going to stay with Intel as long as possible but I am excited about making the switch to ARM once it's shown to not be a hassle.

This is Apple we're talking about -- and Apple is what other OEMs want to be when they grow up. Not only will the Apple-designed ARM CPUs perform at or above the level of a similarly-specced Intel machine, but the ISA transition will be seamless , with a nearly-invisible Intel binary compatibility layer that does on-the-fly JITing. Otherwise, they simply won't release it at all.

Considering that they can't manage to not break foundational libraries in code paths that should require no changes (at least since the introduction of Aqua, with the actual code being used since 1988!) and considering how they broke even 64bit software in Catalina in subtle ways that are still impossible to figure out by developers...

Nah. It won't be seamless at all. It will be like touchbar macs - you buy it because last 3 generations were stuck in place with little improvement and you are forced artificialy to upgrade.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#119

Post by ianai »

philwelch wrote: post #105
ianai wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could make an x86 daughterboard for the Mac Pro. Plenty of space for that and it’s been done decades ago. Or a third party could. I wonder whether they’ve got any special killer apps in mind for the desktop and MacBook ARM machines. They could theoretically customize them greatly since they’re designing the architecture. Also wonder whether they view keeping the unix developer pipeline.

iOS development and, potentially, better support for Catalyst are the obvious pluses I haven’t seen mentioned yet.

Or graphics algorithms tailored to many cpu cores instead of just gpus. Or have the Mac platform interoperate with their mobiles better, again.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#120

Post by p_l »

oefrha wrote: post #39
thought_alarm wrote: post #19

Always a year away. I remain deeply sceptical that Apple will move the Mac to ARM, and given their bungling of the MacBook lineup over the last 5 years I have doubts they understand what their users need from a laptop. I don't think they could pull it off without a great deal of pain for their users and developers. I don't think their OS engineers need the burden.

> Always a year away. Citation needed. We’re not talking about Year of the Linux Desktop here. I’ve been hearing rumblings and speculations about ARM Macs since at least five years ago, but IFAICR never heard a concrete timeline attached to it, let alone “a year away”. And 2021 would be fairly consistent with speculations.

Are you sure? It seemed to be consistent theme of Apple rumours since I think ~2012, until grumbling about shit quality overtook it from 2015 onwards, but it never disappeared. The timeline was not so stated, but it usually boiled to "it will be the one more thing and next WWDC".
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