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Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

bluetrace.io

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Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#111

Post by throwanem »

Proziam wrote: post #104
throwanem wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. edit: Well, you won't be held to it assuming we haven't reached a need for sufficiently severe triage, I suppose. Otherwise, you might get a chance to quite literally put your life on the line for the principle you've just espoused! I w…

All the soldiers, firefighters, and doctors/nurses/EMTs (and many more) are putting their lives on the line for what they believe in. Some of them believe in the constitution and some of them simply desire to help their fellow man. Not everyone is so weak that they sell out others for their own benefit, and assuming the worst of others only serves to expose your values, or lack thereof. > I wish you joy of it. That w…

"The weak should be winnowed from the strong, that the strong may prosper without being held back" is an idea that attracts your sympathy, though?

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#112

Post by GordonS »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #101
GordonS wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current pandemic is force majeure, the next one might be accidental, the one after that purposeful Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. > Advancement of science and technology in large parts means making more and more potentially destructive power available to indi…

> Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. Looks at JHU map... I think there is. > If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. > Yo…

> Looks at JHU map... I think there is.

Sorry, "JHU"?

> A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men.

Maybe I misunderstood you then - you said "the one after that purposeful". Based on your latest comment, I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not governments.

> Contact tracing seems like a no-brainer here. Great payoff for relatively little effort

OK, we have common ground here :) I fully agree that contact tracing is essential when a new and dangerous virus is discovered. Where I think we differ is the means to that end.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#113

Post by Reelin »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #101
GordonS wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current pandemic is force majeure, the next one might be accidental, the one after that purposeful Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. > Advancement of science and technology in large parts means making more and more potentially destructive power available to indi…

> Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. Looks at JHU map... I think there is. > If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. > Yo…

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the discovery of CRISPR a few years ago means that gene drives are more accessible than ever. I'm not sure if it will be feasible to defend against them at all for the foreseeable future.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#114

Post by TeMPOraL »

GordonS wrote: post #112
TeMPOraL wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. Looks at JHU map... I think there is. > If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. > Yo…

> Looks at JHU map... I think there is. Sorry, "JHU"? > A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. Maybe I misunderstood you then - you said "the one after that purposeful". Based on your latest comment, I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not govern…

> Sorry, "JHU"?

Johns Hopkins University, in particular their map here:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h...

> I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not governments.

Yup, I meant primarily small groups. Coarse-level bioweapons have bad payoff for governments - they're as likely to harm the attacker as the target. A targeted weapon, hurting only a specific group of people, would be more useful for a government, but it's still risky business - pathogens tend to mutate rather fast. I'm more worried about the crazy people that have a grudge and/or a point to make, and no regard for their own safety.

> Where I think we differ is the means to that end.

It's really, really hard to do contact tracing without some form of surveillance / keeping track of people's whereabouts. Systems that could streamline existing data collection end up giving similar data to what this app would.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#115

Post by TeMPOraL »

Reelin wrote: post #113
TeMPOraL wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. Looks at JHU map... I think there is. > If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. > Yo…

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the discovery of CRISPR a few years ago means that gene drives are more accessible than ever. I'm not sure if it will be feasible to defend against them at all for the foreseeable future.

All the more reasons for being able to deploy swift and heavy biosafety measures at a moment's notice. But I didn't want to go into that territory, because a) I don't want to sound too alarmist, and b) I'm not very confident about what is vs. what isn't possible with CRISPR-based workflows in terms of bioweapons.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#116

Post by TeMPOraL »

kazinator wrote: post #110
TeMPOraL wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. Looks at JHU map... I think there is. > If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. > Yo…

> A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. Someone with a viral bioweapon will develop it together with a vaccine. They will let only their people and allies have the vaccine, ensuring it is distributed secretly ahead of time, and wipe out everyone else. Or possibly use it for blackmail: surrender…

I'm worried that bioweapons at present levels of technology/understanding of science are just too risky for sane people to deploy. Even if a vaccine was paired with a pathogen, the risk of mutation making the vaccine irrelevant is too high.

Therefore, I'd expect one to be developed by some suicidal crazies with a grudge, who also won't have a particular need for a vaccine.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#117

Post by TeMPOraL »

Reelin wrote: post #108
TeMPOraL wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn’t people just stop using any tracking applications once there is no tracking needed? There's a risk that once the capacity is tried and tested, governments and private companies alike will try to make it enticing and useful for different means. The role of privacy activists should be nipping all these follow-up ideas in the bud. Ensuring that emergency measures are used only during actual emergencies. But no…

I completely agree. To that end, it actually seems like fully decentralized client side contract tracking would be a useful technology to have a set of government supported open specifications for. Building the functionality into the OS, securely encrypting (no key escrow!) with a user supplied password, and requiring a warrant to seize (but good luck without the password) would proactively enable a robust response t…

I share the feeling. I want my phone to collect data about me and my environment. But I want to own that data and use it for myself, not have it sent out to some third parties.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#118

Post by GordonS »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #114
GordonS wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looks at JHU map... I think there is. Sorry, "JHU"? > A viral bioweapon is like trying to enact MAD by being the only ones with nukes and threatening to nuke everyone including yourself unless others do as you wish. It's a domain of mad men. Maybe I misunderstood you then - you said "the one after that purposeful". Based on your latest comment, I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not govern…

> Sorry, "JHU"? Johns Hopkins University, in particular their map here: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h... > I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not governments. Yup, I meant primarily small groups. Coarse-level bioweapons have bad payoff for governments - they're as likely to harm the attacker as the target. A targeted weapon, hurting only a specific group of peo…

> Johns Hopkins University, in particular their map here

OK, we're fully agreed that covid-19 is extremely serious, my disagreement is your belief that biological warfare is readily available to small groups or individuals.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#119

Post by Reelin »

GordonS wrote: post #97
TeMPOraL wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose a XXI-century technologically advanced society can do to ensure its biosafety? The current pandemic is force majeure, the next one might be accidental, the one after that purposeful. Advancement of science and technology in large parts means making more and more potentially destructive power available to individuals and small groups. Society needs a defense to compensate. Biology is particularly na…

> The current pandemic is force majeure, the next one might be accidental, the one after that purposeful Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. > Advancement of science and technology in large parts means making more and more potentially destructive power available to indi…

> You are implying that individuals could release a bioweapon upon the world - sorry, but again I think this is pure alarmism, and absolutely not what we need right now.

Honestly, it's not alarmist at this point and it's not just limited to bioweapons. A whole host of chemicals such as dimethylmercury exist and could potentially be weaponized.

Science and technology advance relentlessly; at some point we will have to figure out how to apply our new capabilities to achieve surveillance without the dystopian part. Unfortunately, current political processes don't lend themselves to this.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#120

Post by Reelin »

GordonS wrote: post #118
TeMPOraL wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, "JHU"? Johns Hopkins University, in particular their map here: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h... > I guess this was in relation to small groups or individuals, not governments. Yup, I meant primarily small groups. Coarse-level bioweapons have bad payoff for governments - they're as likely to harm the attacker as the target. A targeted weapon, hurting only a specific group of peo…

> Johns Hopkins University, in particular their map here OK, we're fully agreed that covid-19 is extremely serious, my disagreement is your belief that biological warfare is readily available to small groups or individuals.

> my disagreement is your belief that biological warfare is readily available to small groups or individuals

As a counterexample, have you considered that much of the cutting edge biological research takes place in academic labs? The vast majority of those would fit the definition of a small group, and many of the projects they undertake are conducted by only one or two individuals. The level of expertise required and difficulty of learning the material are the main barriers to entry for outsiders.

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