Open Source Ventilator Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#111

Post by l_davis » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #110

l_davis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it sounds like it is a good solution for you and potentially could be a good solution for others who can write. I can see where people in IT (that's the typical audience here, right?) wouldn't care about work like that though. Most people in IT would rather do almost anything other than write, and I think most in the IT profession who can in the US can make more than $20 per hour on a 1099 basis, though that see…

a. Most people in IT are not the people suddenly laid off. b. Quote from my post today: Some years ago, I wrote a blog post trying to encourage people on Hacker News to develop other services on the Textbroker model. It was basically ignored. Maybe this time it won't be. And maybe I should expand on that in specific. At some point. I didn't post it here to suggest laid off programmers should become low paid writers.…

Was going by your context in this post "(which I posted to HN and it got no traction)". Didn't see a related post and other intent.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#112

Post by chimprich » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:02 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #107

easytiger wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If 1/5 of those cases require hospitalization eventually They won't, they don't, and you have no basis for making that claim. I don't know what your agenda is here but it is entirely clear you have no desire to honestly engage regarding the facts. Certainly a complete misreading, at best, of data presented. It clearly deals with the symptoms during the while life cycle of the disease. What precisely is your goal wi…

They won't, they don't, and you have no basis for making that claim. All the links in my original post are the basis of my claim - the WHO finding in China is very plausible and says exactly what I say - so saying I have "no basis" is clearly misrepresenting my above post. I believe I'm characterizing your claim and their links as well as I can while vehemently disagreeing. As far as I can tell, you cite a survey fin…

The Imperial College study, which seems well-received, and which caused the UK government to change strategy, estimates a hospitalisation rate of 4.4%.

This is on page 5 of the paper.

Edit: link https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s...

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#113

Post by lukeck » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 9:34 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #57

chrisseaton wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we know we're creating more artificial problems for ourselves! There was no actual food supply issue. But people have panicked due to unchecked bad information and now we do have a real food supply issue, at the very worst time to have one! Maybe if someone had said to people 'hang on that's not quite right there's plenty of food being supplied' we'd have one less problem.

I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes. We aren't destroying goods. Once/if the virus does arrive in a large volume at the location we would greatly rather that people stayed at home and ate food they had stockpiled than that they then went to the grocery store. Dealing with shipping extra products now (while a very small fraction of…

Having more food at home and therefore not needing to go out as often is good for the people that are physically and financially able to. Those that can’t - people on low or no income, homeless, elderly, disabled and sick are some of the groups that are most vulnerable to this virus. For them, other people’s panic buying has caused more than an inconvenience.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#114

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 10:37 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #107

easytiger wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If 1/5 of those cases require hospitalization eventually They won't, they don't, and you have no basis for making that claim. I don't know what your agenda is here but it is entirely clear you have no desire to honestly engage regarding the facts. Certainly a complete misreading, at best, of data presented. It clearly deals with the symptoms during the while life cycle of the disease. What precisely is your goal wi…

They won't, they don't, and you have no basis for making that claim. All the links in my original post are the basis of my claim - the WHO finding in China is very plausible and says exactly what I say - so saying I have "no basis" is clearly misrepresenting my above post. I believe I'm characterizing your claim and their links as well as I can while vehemently disagreeing. As far as I can tell, you cite a survey fin…

> My main goal is to make clear the urgency of this situation.

It’s not ok to deliberately over-estimate numbers in order to achieve this goal. That was my original point at the top of this thread.

You may think it’s ok because the ends justify the means, but it’s still wrong and dangerous.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#115

Post by james_s_tayler » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 10:44 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #57

chrisseaton wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we know we're creating more artificial problems for ourselves! There was no actual food supply issue. But people have panicked due to unchecked bad information and now we do have a real food supply issue, at the very worst time to have one! Maybe if someone had said to people 'hang on that's not quite right there's plenty of food being supplied' we'd have one less problem.

I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes. We aren't destroying goods. Once/if the virus does arrive in a large volume at the location we would greatly rather that people stayed at home and ate food they had stockpiled than that they then went to the grocery store. Dealing with shipping extra products now (while a very small fraction of…

Well a few people moved some of the goods to their homes and today when my wife went to do the shopping she phoned me in tears saying the entire vegetable section was empty. Same with the canned goods section. Same with the bread.

So... We couldn't get any of those to our home. That's kind of a problem.

People just need to chill.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#116

Post by elric » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 10:49 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

I made some remarks about ventilator alternatives here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22624959 To pull out some pertinent details: Ventilators for covid19 seem to be mostly for inflammation and fluid in the lungs (aka pneumonia), not lung or chest paralysis. If you need a ventilator due to inflammation or fluid build up, you can do other things to address those issues. If you are doing home care for serious lu…

> You can do lung clearance easily on your own in the shower by standing with your feet shoulder-width apart or a bit wider, bending over as far as you can and coughing hard.

Adding to that -- as someone with a lifetime of lung issues: physiotherapists can help you cough up fluid/phlegm from your lungs. These are called "Airway Clearance Techniques" (ACTs). Depending on where the buildup is, we may be talking breathing techniques (e.g. deep inhale, hold, huff out), percussion etc. The goal is to bring up the gunk to the upper airway so it can be coughed out. Some of these techniques are easy to learn and perform on your own.

I don't know how useful or safe these are during viral infections, but I suspect "better out than in" applies equally well to all kinds of fluid in your lungs?

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#117

Post by gpm » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:35 PM UTC

lukeck wrote: post #113

gpm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes. We aren't destroying goods. Once/if the virus does arrive in a large volume at the location we would greatly rather that people stayed at home and ate food they had stockpiled than that they then went to the grocery store. Dealing with shipping extra products now (while a very small fraction of…

Having more food at home and therefore not needing to go out as often is good for the people that are physically and financially able to. Those that can’t - people on low or no income, homeless, elderly, disabled and sick are some of the groups that are most vulnerable to this virus. For them, other people’s panic buying has caused more than an inconvenience.

> For them, other people’s panic buying has caused more than an inconvenience.

How? What has it done to "more than inconvenience" them? Specifically what has it done to them except possibly cause them to have to buy different food today because they got a bit unlucky and the store is currently running low on what they normally eat?

On the flip side it means that when they go shopping in the future, when lots of people are sick, there will be less people at the store. This reduces their chance of infection. Do you really think the inconvenience today outweighs that benefit, even if we just look at them in isolation instead of looking at the cost/reward to society as a whole?

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#118

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

l_davis wrote: post #111

DoreenMichele wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a. Most people in IT are not the people suddenly laid off. b. Quote from my post today: Some years ago, I wrote a blog post trying to encourage people on Hacker News to develop other services on the Textbroker model. It was basically ignored. Maybe this time it won't be. And maybe I should expand on that in specific. At some point. I didn't post it here to suggest laid off programmers should become low paid writers.…

Was going by your context in this post "(which I posted to HN and it got no traction)". Didn't see a related post and other intent.

Thank you for giving me some feedback.

Just as you replied to something I originally said to a different person, you aren't the only person reading any follow up remarks, nor will I be the only person reading your remarks. It's like a conversation happening on a stage with an audience of indeterminate size, but potentially thousands of people (or even tens of thousands).

It's always hard to figure out how to craft replies that both make sense to the specific person to whom I am replying and to the larger audience.

And this conversation has maybe gone places I didn't really want it to go and it would perhaps be best to just walk away at this point. I don't like being pitied and then people get mad about that and feel I am ungrateful.

Yes, I have a serious medical condition. But I also have a lot of mojo and a lot of accomplishments to my name, though they are accomplishments that don't do a heckuva lot for a resume and that people tend to be actively dismissive of.

I'd rather get real respect from people, not tea and sympathy. That's no doubt part of why the past decade has involved so much social friction

Anyway, thank you for your interest. If you are as brand spanking new as your handle suggests, let's just assume you simply don't have context and leave it at that.

Cheers.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#119

Post by ceejayoz » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #80

ceejayoz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/25/new-data-from-china-butt... > But on Tuesday, a World Health Organization expert suggested that does not appear to be the case. Bruce Aylward, who led an international mission to China to learn about the virus and China’s response, said the specialists did not see evidence that a large number of mild cases of the novel disease called Covid-19 are evading detection. > “So I know eve…

Your own link says that this is a highly controversial point of view, not agreed with by other experts.

The point is it’s apparently not a settled matter.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#120

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

elric wrote: post #116

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

I made some remarks about ventilator alternatives here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22624959 To pull out some pertinent details: Ventilators for covid19 seem to be mostly for inflammation and fluid in the lungs (aka pneumonia), not lung or chest paralysis. If you need a ventilator due to inflammation or fluid build up, you can do other things to address those issues. If you are doing home care for serious lu…

> You can do lung clearance easily on your own in the shower by standing with your feet shoulder-width apart or a bit wider, bending over as far as you can and coughing hard. Adding to that -- as someone with a lifetime of lung issues: physiotherapists can help you cough up fluid/phlegm from your lungs. These are called "Airway Clearance Techniques" (ACTs). Depending on where the buildup is, we may be talking breathi…

I originally brought up airway clearance because there's a ventilator shortage. I imagine "better out than in" is absolutely a very good rule of thumb for a condition causing the entire world to try to find ways to ramp up ventilator production. Doubly so for individuals who can't get access to a ventilator, so simply getting the phlegm and fluid out is their only real treatment option and it's one they may be wholly unaware of.