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Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

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Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is why the ISPs can't claim the same protections as The New York Times in selling this data. IOTW: is this a 'you know it when you see it' type of situation like pornography, or is there a real differentiator?

That is a reasonable question in its own right, but it is not clear to me how the answer to the question would differ if the freedom of the press were based on the principle of corporations having (some of) the rights of individuals, rather than it being expressly, if vaguely, stated in the 1st. amendment. Ultimately, I think you will find that a great deal of law (and, much more broadly, ethics) comes down to 'I kno…

The original question is if you curtail the ISPs rights here, under what legal framework are you not curtailing the rights of NYT/Wikipedia/etc.

Pornography in law is famous because it is one of the few 'I know it when I see it' situations. While certainly the law lacks the rigor we enjoy in technical fields, it is a rare circumstance where that is the legal basis of an opinion.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#112
post #36

If municipalities stop giving them local monopolies they can have rights again. Until then, they should be beholden to strict rules.

What monopoly? Here in Palo Alto I have full consumer “choice”: comcast or att. I have to use crapcast (though goes down each night) as att, despite their ads, will only provision me 768kb DSL though I’m less than a mile from the CO/DSLAMS (and the PAIX for that matter) I assume elsewhere the two companies have a deal where comcast is slow and att is faster. Of course the competition authorities and fcc are utterly s…

In most places the energy company owns the poles and the municipality grants them the right to be the sole energy provider. The access to the pole is limited to the cable company and the phone company(around here spectrum[cable] and cincinnati bell[phone]). The other option is satellite. Municipalities require payments for each lot that the company services whether or not they have a paying customer. These companies are given exclusive rights to access the poles.(Source=widowed spouse of TCI VP)

I imagine if historically cable tv and phone were transmitted by the same technology or company, there would only be one company allowed access. Since these were historically separate, they are granted access to the poles. Technically this is not a monopoly given that there are two different providers. It is monopolistic in my view. I have yet to live in an area that has more than two companies with pole access.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#113
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What monopoly? Here in Palo Alto I have full consumer “choice”: comcast or att. I have to use crapcast (though goes down each night) as att, despite their ads, will only provision me 768kb DSL though I’m less than a mile from the CO/DSLAMS (and the PAIX for that matter) I assume elsewhere the two companies have a deal where comcast is slow and att is faster. Of course the competition authorities and fcc are utterly s…

You're lucky that you have that many options. You don't have to go too far into rural areas to find places where there isn't any coax on the poles. 24 million Americans don't have any options that the FCC considers as fixed broadband service (25/3mbps)

I lived in one of those areas in the 90s. We had dial-up. I was incredibly happy when we moved to the city and were able to get broadband. I was shocked when I found out a friend who lives in my city today was still operating with broadband. He complained about his wife having trouble using voip while watching netflix, so I suggested he upgrade his router or move it. When I went over to install the new router I found a broadband modem...! His street is serviced by the same companies as mine. He is in an arguably affluent neighborhood. He had to switch companies to get to 50mbit+.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is what enables you to sign a contract with a company, for example. We'd be better off if we couldn't do this. Predatory credit would disappear.

As would employment. (I can't be employed by a company if I can't sign a contract with it.)

This isn't so. Most employment is at-will. This works fine, because lots of laws govern what employers may do to employees, and anyway slavery is illegal so any employee may leave at any time. 95% of any employment contract is various attempts to get around those legal protections for the employee.

This is an especially pernicious case of the normal Stockholm Syndrome we see whenever the special status of corporations is challenged. No firm is 100% robots yet. If we withdraw our consent, they have to raise wages and improve working conditions until we relent.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is what enables you to sign a contract with a company, for example. We'd be better off if we couldn't do this. Predatory credit would disappear.

How do I order something if I can't make a contract with a company? It's a contract of sale.

It doesn't have to be. Fraud is still a crime. If I send the firm a BTC and they don't send me back a BTC worth of goods, how long will they remain in business?

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the flip side of that. If the NYT prints a slanderous story about you, can you sue the deep-pocketed times, or do you have to go after the underpaid reporter?

I don't follow. I can still sue someone who never speaks.

If they didn't say anything, on what grounds would you sue?

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...

> Wikipedia can fall back on the individual editors' rights Can it? Then why couldn't any other company similarly fall back on to the rights of their employees. e.g. whoever is compiling the data being sold in the telecom case.

Employees would be seen as acting on behalf of the corporate entity. So really they are proxy and/or talking for the corporate entity. Not themselves.

Most random employees have no usefully unrestricted free speech when their contract often deliberately punishes them if they say the wrong word. Those people working for companies shut up about their work unless they are willing to go whistleblower / they reveal a workplace safety issue / have legal advice etc.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#118

Sure. Just get the corporate entity to say a single word. No representatives. No notes. No proxies. No robots. No automated voices. The actual corporate legal entity. Not even the CEO. No clever stand-ins with same name. Just one mouthed, audible word to confirm the entity can qualify for speech. Then we can consider "free speech" for that entity. I can only dream this would hold up even as I know there are likely do…

How do you handle the us government censoring newspapers, Wikipedia, etcetc if this is your demand?

I'm feeling verbose today. So.

Demand is far too overstating it. And I'm not proposing or demanding it become law. There's a bunch of side-effects we might not like.

But let's go with it anyway:

Freedom of speech is different from freedom of the press. But both are linked because the amendment was written to allow for people to record their grievances to government via a free press. This is why free press was linked - people wanted their speech recorded in print and it was seen that government might legislate this out of existence or otherwise restrict it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Notice that people can obviously operate a press without congress outlawing it.

Care to show me where a corporation gets free speech from? Not from that amendment. It comes from law around granting corporations the status of "legal person". This was necessary to allow a group of people to operate a business and have the business be liable, make contracts etc instead of the group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person

If you want to imply corporations have freedom of the press and therefore freedom of speech thats the only angle you have if you reject "legal person". Freedom of press is the ability to print. My fictional judge would accept that printed page as "from the corporate entity". But its still not speech: That judge would then ask the corporate entity to speak it.

As for a corporation actually being able to speak or print. The entity can own a printer. So it can "speak" via the press. But it can't actually talk without a proxy. No actual mouth nor was it born with one nor would it could presumably be seen to even possibly have been born with one. This covers the case where some clever lawyer might bring up exceptions for birth deformity as a reason for granting something without speech actual free speech.

But in reality its all moot: "legal person" is already a thing. And it overrides all of this. Until it doesn't I guess but that is unlikely.

The more astute would just say that any of these conditions would have to be put into law and the amendment prevents that. So, its still moot. Unless you determine that legal entities aren't actually people but only narrowly defined as people for particular reasons.

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#119
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev > It's pretty clear the crime here was unauthorized access to the server, not the sending of the information on to the media. I think this is a good place as any to reassert that the CFAA is irrepairable and irredeemable at this point and MUST be scrapped with no replacement.

Why should you be allowed to muck around on my computers without authorization from me?

[deleted]

Re: Telecoms say they have a First Amendment right to sell private data

#120
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply do not believe that one piece of legislation could accomplish this. This is how money makes money. It will not stop for the law.

No credit is already somewhat worse than bad credit so I don't quite see it as implausible.

Yep. I also heard a podcast about a woman who was born at home and never got a social security number. So to the government and to creditors she didn't exist and it was a nightmare for her to do anything financially that most people don't even think about.
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