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Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

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Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#111
post #44

Stripe has the ability to negotiate with their upstream processors that we end users do not. Instead of trying to reduce their costs by pressuring their providers, they're passing along the fees to their customers.

Some of the other comments in this very post [1][2][3] suggest that Stripe isn't being charged the full fee by other parts of the network.

If they're intent on working with the customer to keep prices down, they should only charge a fixed fee for refunds (to pay for overheads), and not the interchange fee.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22371571

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22371746

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22371626

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#112
post #66
post #33

Note: this is different than Braintree and Amazon payments, which either refund in full or simply charge only the $0.30 fee. Stripe is now at or near the most expensive here relative to the competition. The idea that they have been doing customers a favor is not accurate. I have used stripe for years, but they are a company that has continued to make things worse with every update, versus AWS which has my trust they…

(I'm one of Stripe's cofounders.) Thanks for the candid feedback. A few quick thoughts -- - This is not a new policy change -- it's been our pricing for all new users since 2017. (The news is that we're now applying this pricing to Stripe's older users, in part as a response to some price increases that the card networks are making.) - Our policy on refunds is pretty much the same as Braintree's. - We've added a lot…

This is not a new policy change -- it's been our pricing for all new users since 2017. (The news is that we're now applying this pricing to Stripe's older users, in part as a response to some price increases that the card networks are making.)

A phrase that comes to mind is: two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as an example, any business that deals with sex - porn sites, strip clubs, etc. have higher returns. Why should your mom and pop diner with low fees pay more? When you are in certain types of business, you can take that as a cost of doing business. But no matter what the reason is, if Stripe doesn’t get the money back why should they eat the cost? We should want companies that we use to pass the cost of doing bu…

I don't think you understood my point in the first post. The point is that we don't know if Stripe still has to pay interchange fees in case of refunds. It is assumed they don't, and they're just pocketing it.

Ahhh understood.

I’m seeing various things, but the consensus seems to be that the payment processor does get refunded the interchange fee.

https://www.quora.com/How-are-credit-card-processing-fees-ha...

So it would be fair if Stripe charged a small transaction fee for a refund but returned the bulk of the interchange fees.

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#114
post #66
post #33

Note: this is different than Braintree and Amazon payments, which either refund in full or simply charge only the $0.30 fee. Stripe is now at or near the most expensive here relative to the competition. The idea that they have been doing customers a favor is not accurate. I have used stripe for years, but they are a company that has continued to make things worse with every update, versus AWS which has my trust they…

(I'm one of Stripe's cofounders.) Thanks for the candid feedback. A few quick thoughts -- - This is not a new policy change -- it's been our pricing for all new users since 2017. (The news is that we're now applying this pricing to Stripe's older users, in part as a response to some price increases that the card networks are making.) - Our policy on refunds is pretty much the same as Braintree's. - We've added a lot…

This trend is awful for businesses. In October 2019, PayPal (which owns Braintree) also started to retain their 2.9% + $0.30 processing fee from refunded transactions. Stripe is now in the same class as PayPal.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/20/20876570/paypal-refund-fe...

Square still refunds processing fees to merchants for refunded transactions. They have the same fee (2.9% + $0.30) for online transactions, and a lower fee (2.6% + $0.10) for in-person transactions with their card reader.

https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5060-refund-overview

https://squareup.com/us/en/pricing

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#115

The struggle is real. Small fees add up for smaller startups and that used to be their bread and butter--it was so much easier to get payments up and running. We eventually switched to paypal and never looked back.

Isn't paypal's fees the exact same 2.9% + 30c?

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#116
post #66
post #33

Note: this is different than Braintree and Amazon payments, which either refund in full or simply charge only the $0.30 fee. Stripe is now at or near the most expensive here relative to the competition. The idea that they have been doing customers a favor is not accurate. I have used stripe for years, but they are a company that has continued to make things worse with every update, versus AWS which has my trust they…

(I'm one of Stripe's cofounders.) Thanks for the candid feedback. A few quick thoughts -- - This is not a new policy change -- it's been our pricing for all new users since 2017. (The news is that we're now applying this pricing to Stripe's older users, in part as a response to some price increases that the card networks are making.) - Our policy on refunds is pretty much the same as Braintree's. - We've added a lot…

Love your work!

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#117
Hasn't this been the case for 4-5 months? I remember getting an email from Stripe about this back in September or October 2019, or was that PayPal?

The only thing that really bugs me a lot about Stripe (to the point where I've considered moving to Braintree for my next project) is how they handle fraud detection.

Stripe has all the power to prevent many forms of fraud and provides this as a service as long as you pay a premium for it in the form of Radar. You have to pay extra on top of the 2.9% + 30c per transaction to get this protection.

But instead of providing Radar as a base service to all customers for the standard rates, they would rather you have fraudulent transactions against your account because they profit from "dispute fees", which is usually $17 or so per dispute that the merchant has to pay out of pocket, where Stripe takes some cut of that and the bank takes the rest of the cut.

It just feels super scammy of Stripe to not offer Radar as a thing you get by default, since it's so beneficial to have and business owners are powerless in preventing fraud on their own because they don't have hundreds of millions of transactions of data to lean against and a way to perform analysis on the transaction before it happens since merchants aren't directly in contact with credit card vendors (that's why we use Stripe).

I actually talked to support about this once in an email a few weeks ago, and the email began with them saying it's the merchant's responsibility to deal with fraud but by the end of the email discussion, support completely switched their position and said Stripe has the power to prevent it and they will pass my feedback to their product team. Which of course really means "ok, you win, Stripe is really responsible for fraud detection and we can totally do it, but we're never going to give it to customers out of the box because we profit from fraud regardless of you paying for Radar".

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#118
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we built an ML engine to automatically optimize the bitfields of card network requests. Uh, what?

Card network requests are comprised of fairly complex ISO 8583 messages. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8583. ) We now have enough data across Stripe to implement an ML engine to optimize these requests on a per-issuing bank basis. As mentioned in original comment, this helps collect a lot more "free" revenue for our users.

[deleted]

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#119
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may make a sincere criticism, as a person who knows nothing about either side of this conversation.... We should all delete "I'm sorry you feel that way" from our mental phrasebooks. It is a phrase that always falls flat, comes across as potentially sarcastic, and is the textbook definition of a non-apology apology. If you want to clarify something, go for it. If you don't want to apologize, don't feel obligated…

To be fair, this is the CEO personally reaching out. I think that's beyond awesome.

While it’s nice to hear more context in response to the OP’s criticisms, I’m not sure I would consider a response mostly defending the criticisms “beyond awesome”.

Most tech startups know the influence HN has, and to respond to a top post with a mostly defensive stance (vs. the OP points actually having an impact on the decisions being made) is a smart move on the part of the CEO (I would probably do the same thing).

Just saying I wouldn’t have used the words “beyond awesome”.

Re: Stripe refunds: fees from the original charge are not returned

#120
post #117

Hasn't this been the case for 4-5 months? I remember getting an email from Stripe about this back in September or October 2019, or was that PayPal? The only thing that really bugs me a lot about Stripe (to the point where I've considered moving to Braintree for my next project) is how they handle fraud detection. Stripe has all the power to prevent many forms of fraud and provides this as a service as long as you pay…

> Stripe has all the power to prevent many forms of fraud and provides this as a service as long as you pay a premium for it in the form of Radar. You have to pay extra on top of the 2.9% + 30c per transaction to get this protection.

Radar's ML-based shield is free for all accounts on standard pricing. See https://stripe.com/pricing#radar-pricing. (We only charge if you want to set custom rules etc.)

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