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Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

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Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#111

Post by commandlinefan »

arethuza wrote: post #105
commandlinefan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming, of course, that if Finland had to provide for its own defense (rather than relying on us), they would still have money left over for social programs.

Why do you think Finland depends on the US - they aren't in NATO?

Well, that’s OP’s premise (which I do agree with). He says the U.S. spends 700 billion/year on defense, but needs less and that the rest is spent protecting other countries. There are 195 countries, so if that’s distributed evenly, we’re contributing about 3.5 billion/country/year, that they would each have to come up with if we stopped. Now, maybe it’s not evenly distributed like that - maybe Finland doesn’t rely on U.S. presence at all (but I think you, and they, would be surprised), but the point is that we’re indirectly subsidizing a lot of these social programs by providing military defense for a lot of these countries.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#112

Post by maxharris »

me_me_me wrote: post #8
maxharris wrote: post #3

I take issue with the practice of labeling everyone on the street as "homeless", because the truth is that there are many different causes: * battered spouses fleeing domestic violence * runaway teenagers * veterans whose mental and physical injuries * debilitating mental illness * impossibly high housing costs due to NIMBYism and local regulations * alcoholism, drug, gambling addiction That's not an exhaustive list,…

> I live in LA, and I don't own a car, and many people that live on the street don't either. Does that mean that it's valid to label us both as "carless"? Yes, that's the exact definition of not possessing a car. The circumstances might be different and reasoning for not having one too, but if both were asked do you own a car the answer is the same.

It might be a useful concept in a limited, technical sense. In a political context, it is an anti-concept because it replaces a correct conceptual understanding with one that doesn't map to reality.

After all, the primary purpose of conceptualization is to give us humans a way to deal with vast complexity of the world. We can only hang onto 3-5 things (maybe seven if you're a genius) in a single mental frame, and we are utterly lost without that. People let their conceptual faculties get hacked all the time by ideologies and manipulative intellectuals! Don't let that happen to you! (I'm maxharris9 on twitter, and my DMs are open. If you want to know more about this just send me a message!)

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#113

Post by ahelwer »

Bostonian wrote: post #107
ahelwer wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would you say you're happy & satisfied to live in a society where people must work under threat of dying in the streets? Try to imagine a better world. People should work because they choose to, not at gunpoint. I don't feel it's unfair that someone is given a house, even though I "worked for it" (among many other factors which culminated in my not being homeless). Would you mind unpacking why you feel that way?

"People should work because they choose to, not at gunpoint." Ultimately taxes are collected at gunpoint too, and collecting more taxes to pay for free apartments for the homeless and other welfare spending means more coercion.

Here, let me help you: try to imagine a society in which you want to live, not a random bunch of ideas like "taxation is theft at gunpoint" without regard to where that would lead.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#114

Post by joshspankit »

mkohlmyr wrote: post #80
splitrocket wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, and generally speaking, economic of scale should apply to social sector programs. In theory, it should be 60x easier for the US to house everyone, simply because we have more resources to aggregate. Even when you compare per capita GDP, Finland's doing it with $50k, while the US is at $62.5k.

I'm actually not convinced on the surface of it that economies of scale apply to government. It seems to me like the larger the population, the more layers of government required to effectively deploy capital. If you assumed a similar per capita tax rate, but more government is required to deploy the taxes in a larger nation, the larger nation would presumably end up with less money deployed per capita. Of course I a…

The simpler the program, the less layers you need. If the todo list for a homeless person is:

- Assign open apartment

- Digitally fill out form B12

- Deposit money

Then there is very little work required.

Where social programs have the highest overhead is where they do things like “Assess whether it’s ‘required’ based on binders 3 through 7” and “Continually check in with all other governmental arms to validate that they are meeting criteria”.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#115

Post by pavlov »

_jal wrote: post #46
soulofmischief wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US citizen sees a fraction of their tax dollar ever actually reach the ground. The rest gets caught up in people's pockets on the way down. We would need to adjust for this but it's unclear how to create a heuristic.

Do you have evidence that there's more friction/graft in the US than, say, Finland?

There's the established Corruption Perceptions Index published annually by Transparency International:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Finland is ranked #3 while US is #22.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#116

Post by AQuantized »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #37
gamblor956 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

The government shouldn't be able to just walk around pointing fingers trying to put individuals in "therapy". Particularly the sort the is available at minimal budget government facilities.

Do you feel that is an accurate characterization of mental health care in non-US countries with different requirements for commitment, like Finland?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#117

Post by CryptoPunk »

>>The country applies the “Housing First” concept.

California also applies "Housing First", and it doesn't work. According to some reports, it gas led to social housing coming to be rife with drug use and dominated by drug dealers, because previous restrictions on drug use on premises were lifted as part of the Housing First philosophy.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#118

Post by CryptoPunk »

gamblor956 wrote: post #22
maxharris wrote: post #2

To help contextualize this so I understand the situation better, can someone compare and contrast what treatment for debilitating mental health issues such as schizophrenia looks like in Finland vs. the US? The second issue is, In the last 10 years, the “Housing First” programme provided 4,600 homes in Finland. In 2017 there were still about 1,900 people living on the streets . In the US, there are something like hal…

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

The Deinstitutionalization movement started in California, long before Reagan. The reason institutionalization won't return is because of the left not because of people like Reagan.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#119

Post by netsharc »

Bostonian wrote: post #104
netsharc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freaking hell, "Sorry, you'll have to sleep outside, I can't let you sleep in this warm house and bed, because it wouldn't be fair to others.". You probably have a meritocratic view of the world (as many Americans do), that hard work will lead to success. If you believe that, you logically would have to believe the opposite: the people failing failed because they are lazy. But you are discounting luck or upbringing:…

You ignored what I wrote, "There are homeless shelters to prevent people from freezing to death, but that's very different from giving someone their own apartment."

Fine. And I think I (and 1 or 2 other replies to your comment) have also addressed that a homeless shelter is not sufficient to put someone on a stable path to return to being a "productive member of society" (all hail capitalism, for productivity is the goal of life).

Or what do you want me to address in regards to this sentence? That you're not that heartless, because hey, the homeless in your world won't freeze to death, they can go to the shelter. Despite the fact that you think actually helping them long term by offering them the apartment (which the article says is cheaper than taking care of them as they remain homeless) and a path to normal life, that's just too much, and unfair?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#120

Post by collyw »

teekert wrote: post #100

I recently, with work, did a tour around Eindhoven (the Netherlands) together with Homeless people. I learned that one never has to be homeless in that city, there are many locations to get food, shelter and help. The homeless people on the streets have such severe ADHD that sleeping halls stress them out, or they have other mental issues, can't deal with authority, have a severe lack of trust or fear for the healthc…

You got downvoted but someone from Denmark told me something similar about their country.
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