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If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

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Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#111
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[EDIT] Everyone please ignore this comment. It is totally wrong. > If what we’re seeing was 13.8B light years away 13.8B years ago and are now 46B light years away, wouldn’t that mean that those things traveled ~32.2B light years in 13.8B years. No. What we're seeing was 13.8BLY away (in our reference frame) when the light was emitted . Those things are 46BLY away now (again, in our reference frame) but we can't see…

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what I said unless I'm misunderstanding your point. I said what we're seeing was 13.8B light years away 13.8B years ago, since it took 13.8B years for the light to reach us from the point it was emitted. I never said we could see now where they currently are. What I failed to account for was the space expansion during the time that the light was traveling meaning that the light had to tr…

Yes, I misread your comment. And then on top of that I screwed up the answer. I've edited it accordingly. Sorry about that, I guess I'm having a bad day.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and will merge with ours to become..the Milkdromeda (TBD) galaxy. Looking forward to the fireworks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda%E2%80%93Milky_Way_co...

Humans (assuming we are still around) will have to watch from another planet: the collision will happen in ~4.5 billion years [1], and Earth will be uninhabitable long before then [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda%E2%80%93Milky_Way_co... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future#Fut...

That second link I'd read through before, but oh my, you're right there's a number of critical events ahead: an ice age around 50k years from now; in ~300mil years (oh cool never noticed this before), "All the continents on Earth may fuse into a supercontinent"..resulting in another glacial age; in 700 mil years, "The death of most plant life"..

Also realized, there won't be much "fireworks", since apparently the stars are far enough apart that the merging of two galaxies won't cause much collision.

Still fun to imagine things on that scale, especially in light of some of NASA's beautiful photos of colliding galaxies (like https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/goddard/2019/hubble-s-daz...).

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#114

I find the notion of the distance between two objects increasing without the objects moving apart highly unintuitive.

> unintuitive

I don't think it's just you. Maybe I can help; unfortunately developing intuition without going through the mathematics even at an introductory level [as in [1]] is a hard road.

The tl;dr is that the objects are certainly moving apart; the question is whether or not the distance between them is increasing, and that depends on the coordinates in which one measures distance.

In the cosmological case (and there are others in other areas of physics) the distant astrophysical objects aren't moving spatially in one particular set of coordinates, and that set is deliberately constructed to be comoving with the moving objects. Instead, the coordinates' spatial labels themselves are time-dependent, and so absorb the expansion of space. Schematically, an astrophysical object that is at (t=5,a,b,c) in the past will be at (t=4,a,b,c), (t=3,a,b,c) and so on, and in the future will be at (t=6,a,b,c), etc., where a=const,b=const,c=const. The bookkeeping of keeping a,b,c constant for all a,b,c is rolled into the metric, a factor in the Einstein Field Equations, and so one typically hears about the "metric expansion" of the universe in cosmological contexts.

(The astrophysical objects themselves are an idealization of the largest known gravitationally-bound objects: galaxy clusters. The idealization represents them as particles of an ideal dust, to underline that the metric expansion is adiabatic).

One is perfectly free to choose non-comoving coordinates; a change of coordinates does not change the physics of the expanding universe, merely how the physics are represented in calculations. For instance, one can apply spherical coordinates with the origin on you (or some idealization thereof) at all times. Jumping up and down moves everything else in the universe in that set of coordinates. The movement of the Earth, solar system, etc., all results in distant stars moving in that set of coordinates. In those coordinates, the metric expansion is a tiny movement of distant objects in those coordinates compared to you just turning 90 degrees to your left. Distant galaxy clusters can be held still in those coordinates by flying in an aeroplane.

I say an idealization of yourself, because what are you from moment to moment? Several kilograms of gas and liquid pass through you over the course of a day. Tissue turnover happens at scales of weeks to months. You weren't alive at all a couple hundred years ago, much less several billion, so where is the coordinate origin supposed to be then?

Likewise, galaxy clusters have internal motions, radiate, have gas outflows; some collide and merge. The earliest galaxies weren't around at the time the cosmic microwave background became the surface of last scattering, but idealizing on a dust (which is a type of fluid) lets one use the comoving cosmological coordinates sensibly even that long ago. And also into the far future when the universe is so large that there will be on average only one "dust" particle per Hubble volume, and galaxies may have disintegrated into radiation or collapsed into black holes or both.

If we were to switch to spherical coordinates on some well-chosen point within our own galaxy cluster, we'd note that distant galaxies' motions are overwhelmingly radially outwards. We'd still see the (least gravitationally lensed) distant galaxies in our sky holding to a pattern: angularly-smaller, redshifted quasar spectal lines, molecular gas spectral lines, and spectral lines of younger and younger-generation/lower-metallicity stars. It'd be reasonable to think about the implications for RADAR-like round trips, and the connection with RADAR-painting e.g. an aeroplane accelerating away from you during it's take-off and climb. But we also want to think about what two other galaxy clusters would see in their sky, and an expanding universe would give each of those a highly similar view. But they might not even be able to know about the spherical set of coordinates above, and certainly would not find them useful for describing their views of the cosmos.

One might pause here for a moment to consider how an Earth-centric astronomy, a Moon-centric and a Mars-centric astronomy, would each have epicycles: different ones for Mars and Earth with respect to the other planets, and very different ones for the Moon with respect to the other planets. Presumably independent civilizations throughout our solar system would eventually come up with a sun-centric astronomy.

The comoving coordinates seem very likely to be discovered by any comparable astronomers who discover and study in detail the cosmic microwave background, and eventually figure out how to remove the 10^-3 to 10^-6 local-motion multipoles from it [2]. That's at the root of the cosmological coordinates: in them the cosmic microwave background has only tiny deviations from an ideal blackbody radiator at a temperature that decreases with time according to an expanding ideal gas law (for massless gas -- a gas of light, or a photon gas if you like). And the coordinates are useful because later large scale structures (active galaxies and so on) also end up with only small deviations from an expanding ideal gas law for a massive gas, and those deviations are straightforwardly explained by the gas being self-sticky (it clumps, unlike the radiation gas).

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[1] "Many distances" http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_02.htm

[2] T.M. Davis et al., https://arxiv.org/abs/1907.12639 in section 4 has an excellent overview of approximately this process for our civilization.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#115
post #91
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I wrote "more or less stationary", which is describing 1000km/s compared to double the speed of light that would come from naive calculation.

Ah, fair enough. I glossed right over that qualification, which is not a smart thing to do on HN--a credit to the quality of discourse here :)

[deleted]

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#116
post #20

If what we’re seeing was 13.8B light years away 13.8B years ago and are now 46B light years away, wouldn’t that mean that those things traveled ~32.2B light years in 13.8B years. Wouldn’t that thus mean they travelled faster than the speed of light? Maybe I’m misunderstanding though. EDIT: I guess you also have to take into account the expansion of the fabric of space as well and not just the movement of the galaxies…

FTL travel of anything (matter, photons, EM fields, gravitational fields) would result in potential causality issues. I don't know if there are models of universes where GR doesn't apply; that would be interesting, but the causality problems might make such a universe uninteresting even if it were possible. I suppose that's using the anthropic principle as justification for GR? Metric expansion does not result in cau…

> Metric expansion does not result in causality issues because it's an isolating phenomenon

No, in the specific case of the concordance cosmology (and more general expanding cases such as an expanding Robertson-Walker spacetime, or a 4-dimensional de Sitter spacetime), the manifold is still Lorentzian [1] and globally hyperbolic [2].

These features let one sort trajectories into spacelike, null, and timelike. If spacelike trajectories are forbidden to interacting matter and gravitational waves, then we get our usual idea of causality [3].

Collapsing Robertson-Walker spacetimes and anti-de Sitter spacetimes are defined on globally hyperbolic Lorentzian manifolds. They are defined as free of matter and gravitational waves. However we can perturb them slighly by adding a bit of matter, even matter that generates small amounts of gravitational radiation, and as long as that matter and radiation moves only on timelike trajectories or lightlike trajectories, we have the normal causality even though the interactions among separated bits of normal matter perturbing these collapsing spacetimes will generally become more frequent and stronger over time. Indeed, this remains the case even for very highly accelerated compactions, where at late times distances between objects contract faster than light between the same objects can move.

Other commonly encountered spacetimes -- the flat spacetime of Minkowski approximately describes laboratories on Earth and in the International Space Station, and the (exterior) Schwarzschild spacetime which approximately describes the spacetime in which Earth-orbiting satellites move -- are also globally hyperbolic and Lorentzian, and thus we only need to keep superluminality at bay to guarantee normal causality.

In short: our usual idea of causality comes from being able to forbid a certain class of trajectories, and in physically realistic spacetimes (i.e., ones which approximately match parts of our observed universe), those are all as far as we can tell free from things moving spacelike (i.e., nothing's faster than a massless particle, and light is made up of massless particles, so nothing is superluminal).

Taken the other way around: our local observations of causal interactions (both locally, like in laboratories, and astronomically) are strong evidence in favour of us inhabiting a manifold equipped with the requisite features [1][2]. Alternative explanations have generally either failed in some way (self-inconsistency, obvious incompleteness, or inconsistency with repeatable observations) or been more complicated than, but reduces to, General Relativity in some limit. None of the second variety of alternatives has yet to be demanded by actual observations that cannot be explained using General Relativity as the underlying spacetime theory.

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[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Riemannian_manifold#Lor...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globally_hyperbolic_manifold

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_structure

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In essence, it's 'okay' for things to be FTL due to expansion of the medium. Imagine an ant crawling across a balloon as we stretch it. The ant could get some pretty fantastic apparent speeds relative to another ant because the medium is expanding, but step by step its moving at regular ant speed.

It is interesting to think of the opposite: space fabric is shrinking, so light needs to travel "slower" so as not to break causality. I know I know, it's not really slower because the fabric is shrinking.

It doesn't "need to", it just does. Causality is defined by the speed of light

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#118
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give one thing for you to ponder: what's the true difference of the world you experience in the waking state and the world you experience during dreaming state and the cause behind both of these? The puzzle of the universe, infinity and multiverse can become apparent if you ponder over the above question.

The world we experience in the waking state is persistent and objective. The world we experience during the dreaming state is subjective and temporary. There, I pondered, and it did not make “the puzzle of the universe, infinity and multiverse apparent”.

Our awake experience is also subjective. When we look at a car, we see how it slides on 4 wheels. A deeper look reveals that the wheels aren't sliding, but rolling. What we see in our mind is simplified models, while the objective reality is much more complex, messy and not comprehensible.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#119

I find the notion of the distance between two objects increasing without the objects moving apart highly unintuitive.

That's an easy one. We hold the same chain and the distance between us is 100 links. The chain has a curious property: its links subdivide like living cells and on average 1 link takes a minute to split into 2. Thus, every minute the distance between us doubles and half hour later we'll be 1 billion times further from each other. We can replace the chain with a net or even with a 3d net.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#120
post #2

What does it mean: "if we left today we could only reach one third of it"? I couldn't find a the limiting factor... The stars would be dead before we arrived? My best guess. Of course, the qualification would be that we continue to be bound to the speed of light maximum.

We can only move as fast as the speed of light. At a truly large scale space expands faster than that.

Unless we find a way to create a space links between two distant points.
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