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How can you know what news is real?

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Re: How can you know what news is real?

#111

Post by krapp »

zabana wrote: post #38
krapp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one problem is that, due to general mistrust and paranoia regarding the "mainstream media," people tend to conflate bias with intentional fabrication and propaganda.

there have been numerous examples of fabricated information or outright propaganda in mainstream media in the past. Most recently the fake news stories regarding ISIS from ABC. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/dan-gainor-fake-news-abc-fal...

You mention "numerous examples of fabricated information or outright propaganda" and "fake news stories regarding ISIS from ABC" (stories, plural) but only cite one data point - a story for which the wrong video was used, and which was later retracted. And for which, as far as I understand, malicious intent has yet to be proven.

I understand it's considered axiomatic here to assume malice where stupidity would suffice as regards the media, but as you're attempting to argue against fabrication and deception by the media, your yourself are attempting to deceive readers here by conflating your case.

Perhaps you could add weight to your argument by listing the other fake news stories regarding ISIS from ABC?

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#112

Post by k_sze »

vearwhershuh wrote: post #103
k_sze wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that, in order to protect the ones you love, especially their future, you need to make some important decisions like voting, joining protests when you need to, and maybe even trying to convince other people to vote for the same candidate or to join you in protest; all of these activities require being informed of the true agenda and abilities of candidates, of important socio-political issues, etc. You…

I disagree. In as much as any of those distract you from raising good children, they hurt more than they help, and voting and political activity in general is pointless (at best) in most countries. The elites are going to get what they want until there is bloodshed, and probably even beyond that as well. Irish Democracy[1] is more effective and more moral than any sort of political activism. [1] "Quiet, anonymous, an…

What you are talking about is the "action". I don't think that really invalidates my point: good old democracy via voting may not be your preferred mode of political action, but you still need to be informed about issues so that you take action for the right cause, whatever the form of political action you want to take.

Put another way, you need to be informed so that you can engage in lawbreaking and disobedience for the right cause.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating for lawbreaking or disobedience. What I said above was just for the sake of argument in favour of staying informed.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#113

Post by RickJWagner »

I think the biggest problem isn't reporting false statements. It's reporting marginal or true statements, but presenting only one side of the story. Or controlling the narrative-- by selecting which questions to ask/answer, the purveyor totally controls the conversation.

I think the only defense is to get news from a variety of diverse sources.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#114

Post by iagovar »

k_sze wrote: post #110

I'm an avid reader of Chomsky. He often gets his sources from financial and foreign policy publications. I think I remember him writing something to the effect of: the best source of truthful journalism is in the finance and foreign policy publications, the reason being that those publications help powerful people form their opinions and make decisions, and none of the powerful people would be subscribing to publicat…

Foreign Policy has biased publications. I know this because I've been involved in events they talked about and it was indeed biased and lacked information, and some of the context. The job was still better than main stream media, that's true.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#115

Post by RickJWagner »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #75

Having run a newspaper, I know the problem is the business model. Funding by advertising is a terrible business model for journalism. "real" journalism doesn't make any money because it's expensive to make and doesn't generate any more ad revenue than bad journalism. Most newspapers lose money, and that's getting worse not better. So billionaires own (and subsidise) newspapers, and get to influence content. So either…

I don't think public funding is good, either.

The BBC gets its revenues from public funding, but it's got a strong political bias.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#116

Post by baq »

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #98
baq wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd say that tax money should go to newspapers but how do you disentangle tax money from politicians is... a bit of a problem.

Why in the world would you want tax money to fund journalism?

obviously because private money has sick incentives and there's only tax money besides private capital to work with. like i said the problem is tax money also has sick incentives.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#117

Post by mc32 »

k_sze wrote: post #104
mc32 wrote: post #48

One attempt could be forming professional associations where members get disbarred for violating principles for reporting. It wouldn’t be perfect but could be better than what we have where there is no responsibility or accountability for misrepresenting news events.

I'm afraid that in the bigger picture of modern media landscape, that's not going to have much of an effect. Let's say you disbar some John Doe so he cannot be hired by a news media organisation any more. There is still nothing stopping him from blogging, tweeting, instagramming, and tiktoking. I suspect that the people who really know how to spin stories and get a following don't really need to work for a newspaper…

You make a good point about that and this doesn’t solve that issue.

The issue it tries to address is the one where people are looking to find journalistic news based on confirmed evidence rather than hearsay, speculation, playing loose with statistics, posing opinionmakers as experts and driving narrative, etc.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#118

Post by lm28469 »

_akei wrote: post #87
lm28469 wrote: post #41

The real question is why are people following the news anyway? It's pure entertainment at that point. "Hey Karen have you seen that a girl was raped and murdered 1000 miles away from you ? Have you heard what _unknown politician of a third world country you couldn't even place on a map_ said ! that's outrageous. A cop killed an innocent man today #thoughtsAndPrayers". The world would be a much better place if everybo…

Those in power will certainly prefer your kind of thinking. With your kind of thinking, Nelson Mandela wasn't going to be released from jail. I doubt they were even gonna send him to jail. They were going to quietly execute him. Apartheid wasn't going to be defeated, and black South Africans were still going to be treated like animals in their own country. It was reporting by British media, politicians, celebrities a…

I'll focus on my town and country before thinking about things happening 10k kilometres from me and on which I have absolutely no power whatsoever. That's why we're supposed to elect competent politicians btw, to take care of the serious business we citizen know jack shit about.

We can take a current event, hong kong, besides posting memes on reddit and #thoughtsAndPrayers on twitter what are people outside of the region doing ? Nothing. You can be aware and upset about something, if you don't do shit about it you're better off taking care of your local community. I also doubt we can compare the vast majority of the click bait news spewed by mainstream media and the holocaust. There is a very big difference between a war next door and whatever happens in the other side of the world.

Let's reverse your argument, what about Vietnam, Irak, Afghanistan ? the US managed to (initially) get public support for those through the medias, are they a net good for the average citizen ?

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#119

Post by vearwhershuh »

k_sze wrote: post #112
vearwhershuh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. In as much as any of those distract you from raising good children, they hurt more than they help, and voting and political activity in general is pointless (at best) in most countries. The elites are going to get what they want until there is bloodshed, and probably even beyond that as well. Irish Democracy[1] is more effective and more moral than any sort of political activism. [1] "Quiet, anonymous, an…

What you are talking about is the "action". I don't think that really invalidates my point: good old democracy via voting may not be your preferred mode of political action, but you still need to be informed about issues so that you take action for the right cause, whatever the form of political action you want to take. Put another way, you need to be informed so that you can engage in lawbreaking and disobedience fo…

Right, but with the main information channels (popular media, academic media, history) being at least in part a system of disinformation and control, and with the alternative channels easily overwhelmed by state and non-state actors as well as kooks, even paying attention is usually a net negative. It takes up valuable time and energy you could be using locally.

I suppose my point here is mainly one of degree: sure, be somewhat informed as to what the current disinformation campaigns are, but don't take it too seriously or think you are getting any "truth" out if it. And read old books, especially by people who were popular in their time but are now ignored, such as Henry George.

Voting, of course, is pointless.

Re: How can you know what news is real?

#120

Post by marcus_holmes »

RickJWagner wrote: post #115
marcus_holmes wrote: post #75

Having run a newspaper, I know the problem is the business model. Funding by advertising is a terrible business model for journalism. "real" journalism doesn't make any money because it's expensive to make and doesn't generate any more ad revenue than bad journalism. Most newspapers lose money, and that's getting worse not better. So billionaires own (and subsidise) newspapers, and get to influence content. So either…

I don't think public funding is good, either. The BBC gets its revenues from public funding, but it's got a strong political bias.

Same for the ABC in Australia. They had some scandal recently with politicians intervening in stories.
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