Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines • Hacker News Board

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#111

Post by lr4444lr » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #67

robbrown451 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine you don't live in the city. More and more of the merchandise at Safeway is behind lock and key (shampoo, toothbrushes, etc), and incidents with security detaining someone (who is often making a very loud scene) are not at all uncommon. Regardless, I don't agree with your theory. It might work for a while, but as soon as people see other people getting things for free, and the prices they pay go up to compen…

I live in a city. You're describing a vast minority of stores in the US, I don't know who you're trying to fool... Sure you can go to a some neighborhoods and find stuff under lock and key and aggressive security, but the vast majorities of stores do not rely on that (in other words, the system as a whole does not rely on that, even if there are special cases for specific stores) You're waxing poetic about rioting an…

If you live in a city and have looked into the phenomenon of urban "food deserts", you'd know that it is affected in significant part by the low per store margin of a grocery store being eaten by security and shoplifting costs. The OP may be somewhat hyperbolic, but he's not all wrong.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#112

Post by Wowfunhappy » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

I'd assume that most people would do their best to return books, but my concern would be that a tiny handful of bad actors could hoard books and ruin the system for everyone else

This doesn't seem to have happened, which is super encouraging! But I'm also very surprised!

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#113

Post by consp » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #38

reaperducer wrote: post #28

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

Interesting. I noted below that the libraries could work with the post office to get books back efficiently, but based on this they should probably start with school libraries instead.

The "library" in my school (sub 13 years old, the library was a few bookcases at best for a school of ~120 kids) had books from the central library in the town. You could look up a book, reserve it and it would be delivered next week if available (no internet then, so it was a computer with the book list and reservation cards you had to fill in). If it was not available you would get a notice when it would arrive. Or you took your bike and drove the 5km but as a small kid that is not always an option and you'd have to get your parents to bring or help you get there. You could return all books there even if you picked them up elsewhere in the same library system. It's sort of a postal system I guess.

It didn't get used too often, but it was a nice addition to the rotating book supply that was otherwise available. And it was also a nice learning experience for us small kids about how the libraries worked and we got to use computers.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#114

Post by cujo » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

jmahyoung wrote: post #104

vanniv wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm curious. Did they require that the books be returned in order to open up borrowing again? Like, just, "please bring the books back, we'll disappear the fees and just take 'em back and all is forgiven"? Or did they just... reactivate the accounts and hope that history won't repeat? (Genuinely curious -- the articles I've read on the subject, like this one, are all excited about more library everything, but qui…

Your proposal seems reasonable and a fair way to prevent a few bad actor patrons from stealing the whole library and then claiming no repercussions.

I assume there is still a limit on the number of books you can have out. If you never bring one back you can't keep taking out more.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#115

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

It's the medieval mentality, like there is a shortage of paper or something. The amount of it wasted in my office alone could supply every library in town. I'd be happy if a kid stole 10 books from my shelf and read one.

The most expensive thing in the world is people that are unemployable, ignorant, need support and vote for the politicians we deserve!

There should be like a national policy where kids get paid for reading, every penny spent will payoff 100X.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#116

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #70

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

I agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors? (I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)

How many books do you imagine they are going to keep/loose, a hundred? Paper is cheap, have a backup. Books in copyright are a bit more difficult, but still.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#117

Post by saalweachter » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

aquadrop wrote: post #106

reaperducer wrote: post #28

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

Oh yeah, that once was a big problem for me when I was something like 9 years old. I was using library a lot and one day I lost the book. And there were fines for that and for late return as well. I didn't tell my parents because we didn't have a lot of money, so that would be a problem. I saved my lunch money etc for two months and then went to the library to solve the problem. They were pretty nice about it and let…

All problems are big when you are little.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#118

Post by woadwarrior01 » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

padraic7a wrote: post #93

woadwarrior01 wrote: post #77

The public libraries in Ireland decided to eliminate fines early this year and it seems to have had the opposite effect. In some cases, people don’t seem to return books at all. I’d placed a hold on a book, a couple of months ago and it looks like the people who’d borrowed the only two copies of the book in the system haven’t returned it in over 8 months now. I‘d initially thought that eliminating fines was a great i…

I don't think you're correct here. In my own (anecdotal) exerience it seems to me that returns are up. In fairness books got lost or borrowers failed to return them before the change to abolish fines as well. Did you speak to a member of staff and ask for a replacement book to be purchased?

I did speak to one of the librarians at my local library and I'll be writing them a letter detailing my suggestions, soon. Based on the comments here, I suspect a decent middle ground of a solution would be to not lend books to people who have books overdue. That'd probably fly better than re-introducing fines.

The public library system here Ireland is by far the best I've seen, and it's a bit discouraging to see people exploit a public good.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#119

Post by em-bee » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

Moru wrote: post #91

em-bee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it doesn't have to be funded by the state. you can just "buy" a book off the library. in fact, you could buy the book in a book shop, and the library becomes a swapping center. as long as you bring back books in good condition, and they are in the library catalogue. (the library may not want to take multiple copies of books that are unpopular) of course paying for books up front does affect low income families and us…

Public bookshelf is something that starts to pop up here and there. They are sometimes outdoors, accessible at any time or at the entrance of supermarkets. You take a book that looks interesting, read it and return later. Or just swap with some other book you own. Sometimes there are someone that takes care of the shelf, swapping content from other shelves further away. I often find interesting stuff in our local one…

now that you mention it, my brother is actually managing one or more of those. that means, from time to time he checks if anything not suitable for minors sneaks in there, or throws out stuff that is badly damaged and not worth keeping.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#120

Post by jcims » Mon, Nov 11, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

hvidgaard wrote: post #78

jcims wrote: post #7

They should work with the post office to accept returns. I live ten miles away from the closest library. It never makes sense to drive there solely to return a book and I work from home 95% of the time, so I’m rarely there by chance. As a result, i never go to the library. If i could chuck the book into my mailbox to return it I’d stop by more often.

In my childhood my city had a "bookbus" driving around to the outskirts of the city so people didn't have to travel to the main library. You could pick up reservations, browse through a selection, and return books. It was a brilliant concept, and I was waiting for it faithfully every week. If I wasn't there the librarian/driver would ask the next week what I had been doing since I didn't turn up. He was a kind man an…

Wow, that's a powerful story.