The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#111

Post by otaviokz » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #79

nabdab wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a valid concern. If you don’t have transparency into ongoing work, then you aren’t ready for remote workers. If the only method for your manager to know what people are working on is to tap people on shoulders, then doing that isn’t a “bad behavior” for the manager, it’s necessary behavior. Of cause a better solution is to have trust and plans. (Agile, scrum, waterfall, napkin sketches or whatever it doesn’t mat…

One thing that amuses me - you can provide the very simplest tools (such as an issue tracker report) and some managers will still utterly refuse to use them, to the point of open hostility, because it somehow undermines their position to open a link and read an online report as opposed to asking a subordinate to read it to them instead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unfortunately there's always people living in the 1800s...

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#112

Post by fimdomeio » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

thisisnico wrote: post #105

silviot wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience with lying down to work is that it feels good in the short term, but causes problems in the long term (increased pain). I have no data to back this claim, but I can provide this single data point. I completely agree with both your other points about trust/discipline and important decisions though.

I believe there are many studies, even posted here that lying down < Sitting < Standing < Walking. Lying down for long periods of time is worse for you. (sleeping excluded). Less activity with the body = worse for the body.

One good way to make sure you're not straining any part of the body too much is to have multiple confortable positions that you can change from along the day.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#113

Post by Merrill » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #75

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

> interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something Well, yes, that's what you're being paid for. The alternative is hard KPI's and getting fired for not meeting them, which is not something you really want.

I know one person who works remotely in transcribing and one in editing. They have specific numbers to meet in terms of lines and pages. In fact the transcriber is paid by quantity.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#114

Post by derefr » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

thisisnico wrote: post #105

silviot wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience with lying down to work is that it feels good in the short term, but causes problems in the long term (increased pain). I have no data to back this claim, but I can provide this single data point. I completely agree with both your other points about trust/discipline and important decisions though.

I believe there are many studies, even posted here that lying down < Sitting < Standing < Walking. Lying down for long periods of time is worse for you. (sleeping excluded). Less activity with the body = worse for the body.

The ultimate good-for-you background activity would probably be some movement equivalent to climbing a tree (pumps your whole lymphatic system; suspected of being a causal factor of the health of people in “Blue zones”, as said zones all contain a lot of orchard workers; something our bodies probably expect us to do a lot of, given our evolutionary roots; etc.)

I’m not sure how you could combine it with typing, though!

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#115

Post by nscalf » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #68

Since remote work seems to be the topic this article on async communication spawned I wanted to throw this out there for reactions. First off let me acknowledge that some people prefer remote work and also say up front I do not. I recent YouAreNotSoSmart podcast interviewed Laurie Santos from Yale and if I understood her research basically claims we often both individually and as a society choose things we think will…

This is interesting, and reflecting a bit, it show to me why I like remote work. I train a few times a week in a gym setting that is very social, I have 3 roommates, I call my coworkers quickly if I need something, I'm pretty outgoing and friendly when I go to a coffee shop or market. Overall, I feel like I have other paths to get my social interactions from, so the ability to isolate myself for hard work gives me a lot of relief from the negative parts of work, without feeling like I miss a lot of the positive ones.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#116

Post by auiya » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #72

100100010001 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the “tapping on the shoulder isn’t a bad behavior”. It is counterproductive as illustrated by the linked cartoon. https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt...

They weren't saying it isn't a bad behavior in general, but that in the absence of visibility into what staff is doing it is a necessity. It's far worse than having proper visibility, but until/unless you have that visibility, it's a lowest-effort way of getting some visibility. Of course the right thing to do is to work to get proper visibility, and when you have that, then the "tap" is pointless interruption.

Managers who tap aren't interested in work visibility. That can be achieved via a simple email. Managers who tap are only interested in hearing themselves talk at others.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#117

Post by travisoneill1 » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

I think there is a component of selection bias here. Only productive workers will be allowed by their bosses to work from home.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#118

Post by msla » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #68

Since remote work seems to be the topic this article on async communication spawned I wanted to throw this out there for reactions. First off let me acknowledge that some people prefer remote work and also say up front I do not. I recent YouAreNotSoSmart podcast interviewed Laurie Santos from Yale and if I understood her research basically claims we often both individually and as a society choose things we think will…

I'm much happier not interacting with people like tellers, clerks, cashiers, and the like, because I have a speech impediment and I'd much rather not have to devote the mental and physical effort to talking. I also live in an area where travel can become treacherous and I don't own a car. Do those things apply to everyone? No. But they apply to me. I actively dislike people who think "the study says it's a good thing so I'm going to force it on you... you're welcome" is a valid mindset.

Similarly, I've noticed that being open to being disturbed means being open to having random tasks dumped on you outside the ticketing system, which takes time away from what they're actually tracking your time on. Email and Slack can do the same thing, but seeing someone right there sitting all alone and lonely without my task to keep them occupied seems to be a powerful incentive for some people to air-drop random work.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#119

Post by chucksmash » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

throwaway9301 wrote: post #44

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

The interesting question is: "why?". David Graeber's book "Bullsh*t Jobs" is about that. These companies main priority is not efficiency and productivity. If it was, they could hire less people to do the same work and that would foster unemployment. They have a political and social role: hire as many people as possible. Keep them employed and busy and keep an eye on them. Become too big to fail and you'll be rewarded…

> These companies main priority is not efficiency and productivity.

Still with you here...

> They have a political and social role: hire as many people as possible.

You lose me here.

Most companies are out to make as much money as possible now or in the near future. I spent the first three years of my career in QA at a total BS Jobs company (120k+ employees, lots of government contract and enterprise software work). So many people coasted, nothing ever really got done, etc. Even in a totally dysfunctional organization like that, hiring was either about backfilling attrition losses or hiring people that were expected to directly or indirectly contribute to revenue growth.

Never attribute to a vast socio-political conspiracy that which can be explained by the emergent incompetence of a large organization.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#120

Post by anbotero » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #45

TheThickOfIt wrote: post #7

Anecdotal but I'm the opposite. I hate working from home and love having a team around me, sharing goals and ideas and hyping each other. Different strokes etc.

"sharing goals and ideas and hyping each other" I will be cynical but this does not sound like some work is being done there. Reminds me of the guys of the gym who spend 90% time here just talking.

To me it sounded like the other 10%. While the 90% will be there and not all will necessarily interrupt on purpose (they can be guided to increase the 10%), you focus your most productive interactions with the 10%. From time to time you work with the other 90%, and that helps everybody up the game.

I prefer to work/live alone, but to deny the benefits of camaraderie and relationships with a high-performing team? Absurd.