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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#111

Post by rdiddly »

stupidcar wrote: post #60
baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

No, the complaint is not that Cook is not providing direct evidence, and it is a complete misrepresentation to suggest so. It makes your protestations of disinterest rather suspect, as those of supposed "devil's advocates" so often seem to be. The complaint is that Cook's claims are extraordinary and seemingly impossible on their face because of the fundamental nature of the app in question. Its purpose is to show th…

Not the same commenter, but it seems like the lengthy protestations of disinterest are a reaction to the prevailing online climate of exactly the kind of paranoid hysteria embodied in, for example, the assertion that anyone playing devil's advocate is probably on the devil's side so to speak. Being able to hold and consider multiple contrary or incompatible positions simultaneously is in fact a sign of a fairly sophisticated intellect in the process of doing a thorough inquiry.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#112

Post by cromwellian »

mistersquid wrote: post #29
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

I agree that Apple's stated rationale for removing the HKmap.live app is embarrassing and the removal is a capitulation to China's government. The reasons China's government has decried the app are bogus, but those false reports and allegations do not originate with Apple. However, Apple appears to be accepting those reasons at face value and probably because Apple is kowtowing. Regarding whether iMessage is free fro…

You can lie by omission. iMessage depends on IDS Directory Servers for two phones to exchange public keys. If China can spoof or run their own IDS Directory Server, they can potentially execute a man-in-the-middle attack.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#113

Post by mortenjorck »

Aloha wrote: post #46
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years

If there is one myth that the past couple of weeks have conclusively debunked, it is the idealistic conceit that the presence of western businesses in the Chinese market will inevitably liberalize China.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#114

Post by untog »

Aperocky wrote: post #56
bcrosby95 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.

Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?

If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#115

Post by _iyig »

I understand Apple’s reliance on Chinese manufacturers, but at the same time, aren’t they sitting on roughly a quarter-trillion dollars in cash [0]? If Apple can’t use such wealth to pivot production away from China, or at least feel confident in this option as a contingency plan, then who can?

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/29/apple-now-has-tk-cash-on-han...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#116

Post by Cenk »

Despegar wrote: post #26

Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops). Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was al…

As the academic Zeynep Tufekci (@zeynep) pointed out on Twitter, some of the things Tim Cook claims the app was used for aren’t even possible:

> HK map app can't be used to "individually" target police because it doesn't have any granular reporting and as anyone in Hong Kong can attest, the police travel in large groups. Repeat: the app has no granular function. More like police here, tear gas there, road block here. (https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1182384310873219077)

Also, if it does indeed violate a law, why can no-one tell us which law? Even the HK police deferred to Apple when asked about this.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#117

Post by thawaway1837 »

baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

The point is that this app collates information from other sources. Popular, encrypted sources where you don’t know the source like Telegram.

Why would one use this public app to target individual cops (when it doesn’t even reveal individual cops, and by virtue of its aggregation of data is likely to reveal groups of cops more often) when they could use any of the primary sources instead?

Maybe the other part is true, where criminals are using the app to target areas where cops are not present. That would actually make sense. But the first reason doesn’t add up.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#118

Post by hktruth »

On balance, I think Apple did the right thing.

The police in London raided properties and arrested people before the Extinction Rebellion protests had even started.

Removing the app as a precaution in case some crazies out there decide to use it to ambush and murder people seems reasonable given the situation.

For those who want the app, just use the website.

https://hkmap.live/

However, since the data is crowd-sourced, it wouldn't be hard for an attacker to inject bogus data rendering the entire website and app useless.

Which could be extremely dangerous for innocent civilians if people simply make up stuff. Someone could write, "guy in red shirt, blue jeans and white baseball cap having coffee in McDonalds is an undercover officer and beat a protestor last night".

Given the mob justice and violence that we've seen, it might be better that everyone simply ignores the site.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#119

Post by dirtyid »

In the last week, HK police vehicles have been singled out, ambushed, officers mobbed and attacked with molotov cocktails. Rioters are shot in self protection. Mainland owned stores are targeted when police are not near. All aided by this app that is facilitating extreme violence on the ground.

Of course this doesn't add up to western main stream media news readers who were presented with one-sided peaceful protest narrative that is further perpetuated by savvy HK social media users trying to push the same propaganda. Any news to the contrary have been heavily suppressed on western social media to the point of forming an impregnable filter bubble escalating to the bewildering responses seen here. The cognitive dissonance is strong.

The entire controversy is couched in ridiculous language like kotowed or caved or capitulated when the simple reality is US companies have to conform to local laws and realities. I can see how people are confused, they were sold the idea that US companies are there to export morality, and now expect US companies to behave like foreign policy tools wielded for US geopolitical interests, ironically a charge frequently levied at Huawei. If China had an app that allowed US alt-right or antifa to target PoC/whatever antifa equivalent owned stores and attack the police, it would be pulled in a heart beat.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#120

Post by asdf333 »

reaperducer wrote: post #17

For those who want to read the e-mail: https://pastebin.com/dFyftCuZ As for me, I sold my Apple stock yesterday. Tim won't miss my $10k. But I won't miss him when I am able to move to a better platform.

yeah...not sure i can ditch my macbook pro yet but next phone is not going to be iphone anymore...
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