No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy • Hacker News Board

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#111

Post by kofejnik » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 12:58 AM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #75

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

> Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, I'm skeptical of this to begin with. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neu... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/confirmed-theres-n... When it comes to brains, there is far more variation, on pretty much anything you choose to measure, within the group of 'men' or 'women', then t…

There's more variation of height within male and female groups than between groups, but still you can confidently say that on average males are taller; so "far more variation within the group" doesn't say much

> can't blame our lack of cognitive empathy on biology, it's probably pure socialization/education

Any evidence?

A study linked from one of your links says: "Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain."

So it looks like there are, actually, differences.

Also, it is kind of assumed that we need more cognitive empathy; but why exactly, and how much is too much?

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#112

Post by Gibbon1 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 12:59 AM UTC

anon1m0us wrote: post #106

rozab wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still strong evidence that excess testosterone causes anger and other undesirable effects [0]. Why should there be a backlash when there is evidence? On the other hand, it has been an accepted truism for many decades that the female brain is less capable of many tasks, and I haven't seen firings and ruined reputations over this. The science of this is now being seriously questioned. [0] https://academic.oup.…

> anger and other undesirable effects. "other" could mean these from the linked article: > The growing literature on androgenic anabolic steroid (AAS) usage suggests that some users can develop bouts of aggression known as steroid rage, mood disturbance, hypomania, irritability, and depressive episodes (9–15). Whenever I think about ourselves, I think from an evolutionary perspective. All of the mentioned effects exi…

I have no dog in this hunt, but body builders tend to claim that conversion of testosterone to estrogen and resulting high levels of that are what causes mood issues. Which is why they all take aromatase inhibitors.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#113

Post by toop43 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:01 AM UTC

skizm wrote: post #94

anon1m0us wrote: post #84

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined. Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.

I mean, you should be able to claim either if you have evidence. We should be looking for truth, not virtue signalling by withholding findings because it might hurt some people's feelings.

That's a pipe dream in 2019.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#114

Post by thrwway3947 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:01 AM UTC

Many people online report positive effects from taking testosterone replacement therapy boosting their T level to the upper end of the natural range.

I'm curious if this is worth doing (for no particular reason), as a sort of steroid use. Apparently it can have slight balding effect but is worth it.

Has anyone here tried it, just for kicks? Could you list the effects on you? I am curious how it would effect the HN demographic (which I'm part of.)

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#115

Post by 8bitsrule » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

I'm reminded of a science fiction story I read long ago. A group of space explorers discovers an enormous metallic sphere. They open a port in its side and climb down a ladder. They discover that the whole of the interior is a vast machine, far beyond their capacity to understand. The last man out before the port is closed accidentally drops a wrench. They listen to it clatter down beyond earshot.

"Science is one thing, wisdom is another. Science is an edged tool, with which men play like children, and cut their own fingers." — Sir Arthur Eddington

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#116

Post by porknubbins » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:06 AM UTC

rmilejczz wrote: post #5

acoye wrote: post #3

What is "cognitive empathy"? Is it a subtype of empathy where the brain is making a conscious work, or just a fancy way to say it ?

Cognitive empathy is distinguished from affective empathy; put simply cognitive empathy is your perception of another persons emotional state and affective empathy is your perception of the correct emotional response to another persons emotional state.

Interesting, I wonder if theres is a term for people with good cognitive empathy but poor affective empathy because I often feel like I can read someone body language and signals but usually have trouble expressing sympathy to the extent that when I hear someone died I have to monitor closely to try to react appropriately and not say anything weird.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#117

Post by igornadj » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

rozab wrote: post #104

anon1m0us wrote: post #84

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined. Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.

There is still strong evidence that excess testosterone causes anger and other undesirable effects [0]. Why should there be a backlash when there is evidence? On the other hand, it has been an accepted truism for many decades that the female brain is less capable of many tasks, and I haven't seen firings and ruined reputations over this. The science of this is now being seriously questioned. [0] https://academic.oup.…

>the female brain is less capable of many tasks

That's a very problematic and dangerous phrasing. There is also no such thing as the female brain. There are distributions of biology.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#118

Post by Gibbon1 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:14 AM UTC

daenz wrote: post #4

>Prior to this work, the strongest evidence for a link between testosterone exposure and reduced cognitive empathy came in 2011 in a study that found administering testosterone to healthy women reduced their performance on a test of reading emotions. The results suggested the testosterone impaired their performance. That's interesting. Adult males typically have 7-8 times the levels that females do, and females are m…

> injecting females with extra testosterone was just plain mentally disorienting

Reminds me of a study done about 35 years ago by the California DOT to measure the effects of both alcohol and marijuana on driving performance. Turns out teetotalers and non pot smokers suck at driving when given booze or pot. Boozers also suck when given alcohol but not as much. And pot smokers are barely effected at all.

I'm suspicious that the body compensates eventually, so acute effects don't necessarily tell you anything particularly valid.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#119

Post by humanrebar » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:22 AM UTC

moosey wrote: post #105

What I'm more interested in seeing is whether or not being in a dominant group in society reduces empathy. Historically, we might have looked at the lack of empathy of specific groups and made assumptions about the group in general, but perhaps it simply has to do with whether or not that group finds itself dominant in society whether it be economically, politically, or socially. All of these groups in Western societ…

> All of these groups in Western societies have been, and often still are, dominated by men.

But not by all men. If all of the top 1% are men, for instance, there are still 49% of men out there that are both make and not elite.

It's possible you are just observing different men now. Or observing men differently.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#120

Post by krilly » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 1:36 AM UTC

igornadj wrote: post #117

rozab wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still strong evidence that excess testosterone causes anger and other undesirable effects [0]. Why should there be a backlash when there is evidence? On the other hand, it has been an accepted truism for many decades that the female brain is less capable of many tasks, and I haven't seen firings and ruined reputations over this. The science of this is now being seriously questioned. [0] https://academic.oup.…

>the female brain is less capable of many tasks That's a very problematic and dangerous phrasing. There is also no such thing as the female brain. There are distributions of biology.

I should have made clearer that this view is now dated.