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Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

theguardian.com

111–120 of 285 posts

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you read the article, which mentions that there were negotiations up to the last minute to raise the last 200mm pounds on top of the 900mm pounds existing rescue package.

In general I think companies have a duty to their shareholders to fight to stay in business until it's literally impossible to do so. As long as there are resources left, those would have to be allocated to preserving the business, rather than to smoothing the process for their customers.

In that case the shareholders should be held responsible for leaving people stranded.

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Guardian article mentions that hotels have to wait up to 3 months to be paid by the holiday company. I can see why the Tunisian hotel did what they did, but you are correct that their business relationship is with Thomas Cook, not the holidaymakers. Meanwhile, Thomas Cook holidaymakers were anxious that they might be evicted from their hotels or charged again for their holidays. Holiday companies do not normally…

> The Guardian article mentions that hotels have to wait up to 3 months to be paid by the holiday company. Ninety day terms are very common in most B2B industries. Large companies quickly learn that their suppliers are dependant on them to stay in business and can be abused almost at will. So nominally "90 day" terms claiming you have 90 days to pay become "We definitely won't pay until 90 days after you bill us" and…

I suspect that this might be a varies-by-country thing, certainly in the UK 30 days is the norm, 90 days would be a bit odd.

But I think Italy are mostly 90 days (apparently due to that being Fiat's terms, and everyone else followed suit).

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a subsidy; the companies which sell package holidays need to put the cash up. It was done because of financially unstable package holiday companies setting up and then failing leaving people stranded. Most people in the UK know to buy an ‘ATOL Protected’ holiday if they go for a package deal.

It ends up being a subsidy when the largest provider collapses and the funds don't cover the problem. Who pays then? Oh, the government.

Given that the Air Travel Trust has £170 million of cash and £400 million of insurance; that when Monarch Airlines failed they could repatriate "around 110,000 passengers" for £16.3 million [1]; and that Thomas Cook's collapse leaves about 150,000 holidaymakers [2] in need of repatriation; it seems unlikely the funds will fail to cover the problem.

There might be other expenses, outside the scope of the ATT, that the government ends up paying - there are estimates as high as £600 million [3] - but arguably that's a sign the scope of the compulsory insurance scheme should be broader, not narrower :)

[1] http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATT_Accounts_2018.pdf [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49791249 [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49781920

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is ATOL protection but there's only approx £18 million in the fund. £200 million is needed to pay everyone out.

Where do you get numbers like that from and hows the scheme funded by design?

The UK requires that any outfit selling flights where you pay them and they promise to sort everything out, rather than they just execute and you get a bunch of tickets, passes etcetera in exchange for your money - joins ATOL and pays a small fee for every such holiday sold.

That fee is held by a central organisation that spends the money to fix things when one of these companies collapses, in particular to make sure all the random Brits abroad get put on a plane home.

It exists because the seasonal nature of the business means it's very common (routine in fact: https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Make-an-ATOL-claim/Lat...) for small outfits to go bankrupt, and otherwise their customers get stuck and then the government has to either suffer terrible headlines about why didn't they do anything, or spend money flying home idiots who took a bad gamble.

The account is certainly too small to cover Thomas Cook. But on the other hand, even just having the mechanism in place means the government has a pre-existing organisation to say "OK, fix this, but we understand you don't have the money so we'll pay" rather than trying to cobble something together only now.

/Maybe/ this experience will mean the fee is subsequently increased for new holidays. But my guess would be that's unpalatable and the argument will be made that a failure of this scale is not something the rest of the industry should anticipate and fund, whereas the constant drip of smaller failed travel companies is predictable.

Compare the 2008 financial crisis. There's a much stronger protection for banks in the UK called "Last man standing". In principle the government can allow banks to fail, and remaining licensed banks pick up the entire cost. This is indeed what happens for small banks. However in practice of course allowing even a single very large bank to collapse might be so disruptive that it's intolerable regardless of whether you believe the other banks can afford to pay for the aftermath.

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#115

I don't think "stranding" is the right word. For some time now, UK companies selling "package holidays" (with hotel, air, etc. all from one vendor and with one bill) are required to put up funds that the government uses to repatriate those who are already traveling when a company goes under: https://www.caa.co.uk/atol-protection/ Note that it does not cover trips that people put together themselves; in that case, I e…

“Temporarily stuck until they can get a flight scheduled” is better, but wordy. These vacationers are in safe countries with good infrastructure. They definitely aren’t stranded like Tom Hanks in Cast Away. However, the other airlines can’t magic up 150,000 seats, so it might mean that some people will take a while to get home.

This has been in planning between the CAA and major airlines since at least December 2018. (See 'Project Matterhorn').

The operation will temporarily be the 5th largest airline in the UK, with a fleet of around 50 aircraft.

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#116

It's always blown my mind that companies like this will operate not having enough cash on hand to actually provide the services they've sold. Maybe that's why they're in business and I'm not.

Well, reaching that point is the definition of insolvency.

But having future commitments that you don't currently have the cash for is both normal and expected. The economy is held together by invoice credit.

(Wait until the people who get upset about banks "creating money" realise how commercial credit works and discover "shadow banking"...)

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#117
post #61

Frankly I think its amazing that all these people can expect to be repatriated, relatively problem free, it's like a bank collapse, but you have to herd people. And the scale. Operation Market Garden only dropped 40,000 troops. D day only managed to land 150,000 on the first day.

On the other hand, the tourists aren't being paradropped over hostile territory. Unless Thomas Cook had really gone downhill..

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#118
post #83
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what happens if they declare bankruptcy on you way back ? and what about hotel reservations or the more expensive flight you'll have to take ? BTW Norwegian are fine for a while https://simpleflying.com/norwegian-bond-payments-deferrednor...

> But what happens if they declare bankruptcy on you way back ? Buy your plane tickets with a credit card, ask your credit company for the money back, buy another ticket. This is one of the main advantages of using a credit card: the credit company will absorb the debts of the third party (the airline, in this example).

I just checked my travel insurance and they son't seem to cover bankruptcy of airlines in any way. That's good to know.

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#119

Does this mean Condor Airlines is shutting down as well? Their website[1] says they're continuing to fly, but I'm wondering if there any sort of precedent for what happens to child companies when the parent becomes insolvent. Having just returned just last week from Europe via Condor Airlines, I'm glad I don't have to worry about this mess. [1]: https://www.condor.com/us

Ving Norge cancelled all their flights even though they haven't actually filed for bankruptcy, so don't be surprised if the other subsidiaries end up with similar happenings.

Re: Thomas Cook collapses, stranding 150k UK holidaymakers

#120
post #110
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most British companies I’ve seen operating appear to be an absolute mess from the inside. It’s funny that the British have the Northern European credibility in business but I don’t think they’re anywhere close as efficient or organised as the Germans or the Dutch. This is just personal experience but I’ve come to realise it seems to be the norm that British management is overall terrible.

Incorrect (Or have you sources?).... the issue is old legacy based companies. No matter where they are based. Legacy as in business systems, business thought process, legacy IT, etc. TC is a very old company

Bank of England, arguably the ultimate in legacy business at the heart of all business types, are investigating the benefits of the most recent tech developments, namely cryptocurrency. Is it a legacy business issue or simply and ultimately a multitude of factors including bad management with ego's getting in the way which doesnt make a nice easy to read story or account of events?

I'm not suggesting the original poster is incorrect with their account of events, lack of the right investment is something many people can identify in their own line of work, its just timescales to a point of failure can be variable. Likewise bleeding edge technology is not always beneficial for all, but holding back or testing the water and constant monitoring is required to avoid expensive mistakes.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/ndss16curren... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/bank-england-plo...

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