Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

swissinfo.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 153 posts

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#111

Post by HorkHunter »

jjcm wrote: post #58
dbrgn wrote: post #9

To me as a Swiss citizen, born in Switzerland, living in Switzerland, it's an impertinence that every time I open a bank account with a Swiss bank I have to fill out at least 1 form with information about my relation to the US, about my travels in the US and whether I might have to pay taxes there. As a side note, the only other country besides the US that collects taxes based on citizenship and not based on residenc…

For myself (a US citizen living abroad), my biggest annoyance isn't that I'm taxed on my income overseas, it's that it effectively is taxation without representation. Even though I'm paying tax overseas, there's no US Representative who fights for my interests. I have one who fights for the interests of the residents of a district I lived in years ago, but I have no relation to that anymore. I have a US senator who f…

>represent me as an expat.

Immigrant is not a dirty word

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#112

Post by zahllos »

huhtenberg wrote: post #103
zhdc1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American citizen living in Switzerland, it's somewhat of an impertinence that I'm essentially limited to using one bank - Post Finance - when Germany and a number of other countries with large expat populations here now ask for and receive the same information on their citizens. Edit: I also want to add that you're referring to income taxes. Several European countries collect wealth tax on global assets.

> limited to using one bank An easy solution is to trade your US citizenship to a Swiss one. It takes just 5 years on permit C. > Several European countries collect wealth tax on global assets. Including Switzerland.

> It takes just 5 years on permit C

This is accurate, however, you need to spend at least 5 years in Switzerland to apply for a C permit and have been resident a minimum of 10 years in Switzerland in total, including the last 5 continuously. You'll also need to meet minimum cantonal and communal residency requirements, so if you move canton or even communue at 9 years 11 months, you'll probably have to wait another few years. The process itself will take a few years also.

After all that, you are still defined as a "US Person" for tax purposes and thus banks are required to disclose your information to the US. US Persons are any person with tax liability to the US. You're tax-liable as a citizen (also as a green card holder or possibly a married partner of a US citizen). So having spend 12-13 years minimum in Switzerland to get a passport, you then have to give up your US passport, which will take time and is also permanent.

Usually it doesn't take 12-13 years minimum with stringent residency requirements and the requirement to learn a foreign language to open a bank account ;)

All that said, it is my understanding that the PostFinance-only thing was a reaction to the Credit Suisse fine from 2014. After that, Swiss banks closed accounts and mortgages of Americans without warning as a way to avoid any future risk - a bit extreme, but they were in a legal pickle: Swiss law prohibits them from disclosing account information to anyone not at the bank and includes custodial sentences for the disclosing employee. There was thus no mechanism for disclosure to the US that was actually (at the time) legal in Switzerland. This has been remedied. Banking secrecy still exists, but banks are allowed to transfer information to the Confederation (Swiss Federal Government) and the Confederation can of course then transmit it onward to the relevant parties.

Even more bizarrely, the whole FATCA issue was mostly about wealthy US residents using offshore tax havens to avoid taxes, not your average expat who simply wants a bank account.

I believe that US expats can now open accounts at Swiss banks other than PostFinance again, although I caveat that statement by saying I'm not a US person.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#113

Post by tallanvor »

nradov wrote: post #18
dbrgn wrote: post #9

To me as a Swiss citizen, born in Switzerland, living in Switzerland, it's an impertinence that every time I open a bank account with a Swiss bank I have to fill out at least 1 form with information about my relation to the US, about my travels in the US and whether I might have to pay taxes there. As a side note, the only other country besides the US that collects taxes based on citizenship and not based on residenc…

Swiss banks are in that position today because some of them engaged in criminal conspiracies to help US customers commit tax fraud. If they want to participate in the US financial system then they have to play by US rules. US citizens residing in other countries can still receive some services and protection from the US federal government. So it's completely fair to tax them for that. We can argue about the value of…

The only "services and protection" you receive from the US government abroad are pretty much consular visits if you're arrested. Everything else you pay for, normal in advance, although repatriation is usually billed after the fact.

The US rules apply not just to Swiss banks, but to all banks. Many overseas banks will no longer allow US citizens to open accounts, and some have even closed accounts rather than deal with the burden that the US is placing on them. This does not help US citizens at all.

You cannot just renounce your citizenship. Beyond it being costly, you have to have a second citizenship first, which takes time - 7 years is a common length of time, although some countries have shorter or longer requirements, and many have language requirements that you're expected to meet.

The US is one of two countries in the world that require you to jump through tax hoops if you're working overseas.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#114

Post by scbrg »

HorkHunter wrote: post #111
jjcm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself (a US citizen living abroad), my biggest annoyance isn't that I'm taxed on my income overseas, it's that it effectively is taxation without representation. Even though I'm paying tax overseas, there's no US Representative who fights for my interests. I have one who fights for the interests of the residents of a district I lived in years ago, but I have no relation to that anymore. I have a US senator who f…

>represent me as an expat. Immigrant is not a dirty word

Isn't it the wrong word, though? From the US perspective (which is what's relevant here), he's not an immigrant.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#115

Post by kenneth »

HorkHunter wrote: post #111
jjcm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself (a US citizen living abroad), my biggest annoyance isn't that I'm taxed on my income overseas, it's that it effectively is taxation without representation. Even though I'm paying tax overseas, there's no US Representative who fights for my interests. I have one who fights for the interests of the residents of a district I lived in years ago, but I have no relation to that anymore. I have a US senator who f…

>represent me as an expat. Immigrant is not a dirty word

Emigrant is the word you're looking for, since we're talking about the policies country towards someone who left it.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#116

Post by kenneth »

zhdc1 wrote: post #90
dbrgn wrote: post #9

To me as a Swiss citizen, born in Switzerland, living in Switzerland, it's an impertinence that every time I open a bank account with a Swiss bank I have to fill out at least 1 form with information about my relation to the US, about my travels in the US and whether I might have to pay taxes there. As a side note, the only other country besides the US that collects taxes based on citizenship and not based on residenc…

As an American citizen living in Switzerland, it's somewhat of an impertinence that I'm essentially limited to using one bank - Post Finance - when Germany and a number of other countries with large expat populations here now ask for and receive the same information on their citizens. Edit: I also want to add that you're referring to income taxes. Several European countries collect wealth tax on global assets.

As a Swiss citizen who immigrated to the USA to study, it's an impertinence that I had to lose all my Swiss bank accounts because they found out I had touched the tainted land and I was no longer worth keeping as a customer.

Jokes aside, I totally understand why after the botched 2009 issue, Swiss banks just don't want to deal with Americans. We got screwed hard by the DOJ, and were bullied into going against our core principles. I don't have a lot of empathy for Americans not being able to get Swiss bank accounts after the USA fucked us over like that.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#117

Post by tallanvor »

HorkHunter wrote: post #111
jjcm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself (a US citizen living abroad), my biggest annoyance isn't that I'm taxed on my income overseas, it's that it effectively is taxation without representation. Even though I'm paying tax overseas, there's no US Representative who fights for my interests. I have one who fights for the interests of the residents of a district I lived in years ago, but I have no relation to that anymore. I have a US senator who f…

>represent me as an expat. Immigrant is not a dirty word

Nobody implied this.

All immigrants are expatriates, but not all expatriates are immigrants.

The term immigrant denotes someone who has left their native land permanently - that is, they never plan on moving back there. Many expatriates do plan on returning home, so calling them immigrants is inaccurate.

Please understand that anyone studying abroad, stationed overseas (either with the government or military), or working abroad is an expatriate - no matter where they're from and where they're living.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#118

Post by tallanvor »

kenneth wrote: post #115
HorkHunter wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>represent me as an expat. Immigrant is not a dirty word

Emigrant is the word you're looking for, since we're talking about the policies country towards someone who left it.

You're an emigrant if you left permanently, otherwise expatriate is still the correct term.

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#119

Post by kgwgk »

JacKTrocinskI wrote: post #106

USA is overreaching, European countries should stand up this crap. I'm a Polish and US Citizen and I remember a situation where I was at an airport in Poland and was not let onto a flight after presenting a valid US passport and Polish ID card to the Polish border patrol. They didn't allow me onto my flight due to lack of a Polish passport (Polish law says I need a Polish passport when travelling to the US). I called…

> USA is overreaching, European countries should stand up this crap. [Recounts story about issues at Polish border due to Polish law and Polish citizenship.]

So you would have liked the US to stand against Polish crap on your behalf?

Re: Switzerland in the age of automatic exchange of banking information

#120

Post by shkkmo »

kenneth wrote: post #116
zhdc1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American citizen living in Switzerland, it's somewhat of an impertinence that I'm essentially limited to using one bank - Post Finance - when Germany and a number of other countries with large expat populations here now ask for and receive the same information on their citizens. Edit: I also want to add that you're referring to income taxes. Several European countries collect wealth tax on global assets.

As a Swiss citizen who immigrated to the USA to study, it's an impertinence that I had to lose all my Swiss bank accounts because they found out I had touched the tainted land and I was no longer worth keeping as a customer. Jokes aside, I totally understand why after the botched 2009 issue, Swiss banks just don't want to deal with Americans. We got screwed hard by the DOJ, and were bullied into going against our cor…

> I don't have a lot of empathy for Americans not being able to get Swiss bank accounts after the USA fucked us over like that.

Why not? We don't blame the Swiss for this. This is clearly the fault of the US government and I think we can have sympathy with each other for being screwed over by one of the most powerful organizations on the planet.

Post reply on HN