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Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

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Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#111

Post by derefr »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. China is the second largest economy in the world, and has the second most powerful military. In addition, what they view as the integrity of China is one of their biggest priorities. In addition, they have always viewed British control of Hong Kong as a national humiliation and are bent on erasing all traces of that memory. The way it stands right now, China can inflic…

> China can inflict a lot more pain, and is likely willing to endure more pain that the rest of the world is likely willing to inflict on China because of their behavior in Hong Kong.

That assumes that the rest of the world would be using Chinese aggression on Hong Kong (and Tibet, and the Uighur peoples, and...) as the sum total of their motive for any reaction.

If, instead, these actions are just seen as a moral justification behind a very different motive (e.g. destroying the CCP and giving control of the Chinese mainland back to the Taiwanese CNP, where foreign powers would have already made deals with the CNP from a position of strength that would give great economic advantages; or even an imperialist land-grab that sees China parted up as colonies of these foreign powers) then the “trigger event” doesn’t have to weigh very heavily on the scales at all. WWI was started under similar pretences.

> If Great Britain, and the rest of the world did not have the will to resist China taking control of Hong Kong in 1985 and 1997 when China was a lot less powerful, a lot less developed, and a lot more susceptible to pressure from the rest of the world, there is no hope for now.

Another way to think about this, though, is that multilateral cooperation gets easier as external pressure increases. It’s hard to get a coalition of countries together to fight a China that isn’t a threat; and without that coalition, you’ll be considered an invader (like Russia in the Ukraine, or the US in Vietnam) rather than a rescuer (like the US in some other countries.) This means that, even in a situation where every country individually would like to put a stop to what China is doing, the Nash equilibrium on a global-political level is for each country to do nothing until China (or whoever) gets really bad, and only then, suddenly, will everyone cooperate to fight them.

(Though, also, on a more cynical note, a more developed—but not yet fully urbanized—country, is a more valuable country to annex. One could view this period where China was allowed to develop as a farmer allowing a crop to “ripen.”)

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#112

Post by Robotbeat »

dragonsh wrote: post #48
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. China is the second largest economy in the world, and has the second most powerful military. In addition, what they view as the integrity of China is one of their biggest priorities. In addition, they have always viewed British control of Hong Kong as a national humiliation and are bent on erasing all traces of that memory. The way it stands right now, China can inflic…

Well even though my minority position on this issue will downvote my comment I will still write it. As most on this thread are not willing to talk the real culprit behind this protest which is economic inequality and no hope for future development. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, these protests are manifestation of inherent economic inequality in Hong Kong society. The youth in Hong Kong cannot afford a house. Th…

This is some elaborate whataboutism that lets China (which has had control over Hong Kong for 22 years) entirely off the hook, or even praises the just-as-imperialist Chinese government.

You're not even wrong about Britain, which is why this kind of whataboutism is so effective.

Bravo. It's awesome that what will soon be the most powerful country in the world will be able to imperialize with impunity since they can always point to the past crimes of the West.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#113

Post by ben7799 »

wutbrodo wrote: post #106
dragonsh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well even though my minority position on this issue will downvote my comment I will still write it. As most on this thread are not willing to talk the real culprit behind this protest which is economic inequality and no hope for future development. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, these protests are manifestation of inherent economic inequality in Hong Kong society. The youth in Hong Kong cannot afford a house. Th…

> Britain is as much to blame for this situation, Anybody who doesn't think that modern Britain is the world's ultimate supervillain has a dramatically-warped view of history. But the blood on British hands and Britain's current denial/abdication of responsibility is the geopolitical backdrop of pretty much the entire non-Western world, and it's unfortunately pretty much immaterial to the situation on the ground.

It's a backdrop to a lot of the Western and Latin American world as well.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#114

Post by cf141q5325 »

eznoonze wrote: post #100
skitout wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realized my post was not clear. I 100% support HK protester! I 100% condemn HK police and authorities. Just wanted to point that despite the fact most of us live in democracy, police can act super violently against protestors, and we don't necessarily realize it before it happens. We need to support HK protestor, and also keep fighting for democracy where we live

In a democracy you have recourse when abused by the police. In a dictatorship, police is just a tool of the ruler to control the population.

In a democracy we should have a recourse other then creating a new party and becoming the government. With a strong esprit de corps between police and the judiciary this unfortunately isnt the case in a lot of democracies.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#115

Post by dragonsh »

Blackstone4 wrote: post #99
dragonsh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well even though my minority position on this issue will downvote my comment I will still write it. As most on this thread are not willing to talk the real culprit behind this protest which is economic inequality and no hope for future development. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, these protests are manifestation of inherent economic inequality in Hong Kong society. The youth in Hong Kong cannot afford a house. Th…

I feel like you list conflicting reasons. I imagine as in most situations there is more than one root cause and this is a multi-factor problem. Economic inequality may be one of the contributing economic factors. Regarding your statement "Britain is as much to blame for this situation, they never had intention to grant autonomy". This statement does not touch on economic inequality but autonomy of the state. From wha…

I couldn't disagree with you more. Economic inequality and no hope for future triggers world wars and revolutions. This bears same signs.

If you see China as a single homogeneous place then there is no point to even argue. Even two individuals are not same painting 1.4 billion people with single brush, I can't even fathom.

Hong Kong is similar in culture to few parts of China not all of China. As China is also diverse in it's own way.

Hong Kong does differ in administration, judiciary and education which is still same in Hong Kong as granted under basic law. Today most of Hong Kong people are with Chinese Nationality i.e. Hong Kong passport with Chinese Nationality and all accepted on their own accord not by force.

I do put 100% blame on British for current situation, when they reaped profits and economic benefit for 150 years, they left without significant economic or political reforms in Hong Kong on the contrary worked to safeguard their own economic interests. They didn't put a fight, because it will cost them economically.

Did not offer British citizenship to all the Hong Kong people who wanted to choose British Nationality in 1997, which indicates they just considered Hong Kong as a colony for profit and economic exploitation only. That's the reason my point if Britain has any remorse and sympathy should grant British Nationality to all Hong Kong permanent residents, whether they take it or not is another issue.

Indeed British should pay reparations to Hong Kong like they owe it to other colonies. [1]

[1] https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2050394/does-...

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#116

Post by logfromblammo »

adamnemecek wrote: post #2

How can people in Europe and US help?

Accept more asylum and immigration petitions from Hong Kong residents that want to get out. Help them bring their money with them. Publish and broadcast Cantonese-language information encouraging skilled and educated people to leave Hong Kong.

Hong Kong is China. No one disputes it. These protests cannot be seen as anything other than a rearguard action to cover the retreat of those who don't want to be ruled by Beijing. So give them a place to go other than Vancouver.

If it had the political will, and were less racist, the US could absorb 750k people to Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, and Tampa, which represents 10% of Hong Kong, and 10% the metro populations of those cities. The coast of the US facing the Gulf of Mexico is superficially similar to the Chinese coast facing the South China Sea, and there must be at least some businesses that could be transplanted without too many operational changes.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#117

Post by throwaw73747 »

dirtyid wrote: post #108
tmwporiejdjr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same reason young, social media savvy altrighters in the west dog-whistle. There's parallels in HK nativism behind these protests similar to your familiar altright talking points. Yeah I stopped reading after this. The only person talking like an alt-right is you. The fact that you think Hk people think mainlander are “locust” reflects a lot about your perspective and upbringing. In fact, I have only heard main…

>The fact that you think Hk people think mainlander are “locust” reflects a lot about your perspective and upbringing. Yes it is a fact [1], facts are useful when discussing topics. This is a well publicized event that reflects HK/mainland dynamics since handover. Only ignorant people discount HK nativism when trying to understand the context of protests in the city. >I am neither pro or against these protestors. I b…

Do you actually read what you write? It’s just hate and more hate. I am so ignorant compare to you.

I truly feel bad for you. I hope one day you see the light and learn to control your emotions a bit. Not all 8 million people hate China. One new source does not reflect everyone. As for the rest of your arguments, it’s just you screaming I am ignorant. Good luck with your life.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#118

Post by chachachoney »

dragonsh wrote: post #48
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. China is the second largest economy in the world, and has the second most powerful military. In addition, what they view as the integrity of China is one of their biggest priorities. In addition, they have always viewed British control of Hong Kong as a national humiliation and are bent on erasing all traces of that memory. The way it stands right now, China can inflic…

Well even though my minority position on this issue will downvote my comment I will still write it. As most on this thread are not willing to talk the real culprit behind this protest which is economic inequality and no hope for future development. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, these protests are manifestation of inherent economic inequality in Hong Kong society. The youth in Hong Kong cannot afford a house. Th…

>> Hopefully they can correct the mistake by granting full citizenship to Hong Kong permanent residents who wants it, otherwise whatever they say is a farce. Same goes for USA, if they want solidarity with Hong Kong protestors grant them unconditional asylum or permanent residence, rest all talks are worthless.

This is something we should all be advocating for.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#119

Post by dirtyid »

throwaw73747 wrote: post #117
dirtyid wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fact that you think Hk people think mainlander are “locust” reflects a lot about your perspective and upbringing. Yes it is a fact [1], facts are useful when discussing topics. This is a well publicized event that reflects HK/mainland dynamics since handover. Only ignorant people discount HK nativism when trying to understand the context of protests in the city. >I am neither pro or against these protestors. I b…

Do you actually read what you write? It’s just hate and more hate. I am so ignorant compare to you. I truly feel bad for you. I hope one day you see the light and learn to control your emotions a bit. Not all 8 million people hate China. One new source does not reflect everyone. As for the rest of your arguments, it’s just you screaming I am ignorant. Good luck with your life.

I made an unbiased analysis with not at all controversial facts for any China watcher familiar with the subject. Nowhere did I say 8million HKers hate China, I'm merely acknowledging elements of nativism in HK and conditions that parallel alt-right disenchantment which isn't typically brought up in western filter bubbles. You, reading comprehension fail, claim only mainlanders are xenophobic, reee about how I'm hateful and mentally ill ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#120

Post by Blackstone4 »

dragonsh wrote: post #115
Blackstone4 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you list conflicting reasons. I imagine as in most situations there is more than one root cause and this is a multi-factor problem. Economic inequality may be one of the contributing economic factors. Regarding your statement "Britain is as much to blame for this situation, they never had intention to grant autonomy". This statement does not touch on economic inequality but autonomy of the state. From wha…

I couldn't disagree with you more. Economic inequality and no hope for future triggers world wars and revolutions. This bears same signs. If you see China as a single homogeneous place then there is no point to even argue. Even two individuals are not same painting 1.4 billion people with single brush, I can't even fathom. Hong Kong is similar in culture to few parts of China not all of China. As China is also divers…

> If you see China as a single homogeneous place then there is no point to even argue.

I said "more homogeneous". Please re-read my statement.

EDIT - You make it sound like I completely disagree with you regarding the implicatications of economic inequality. I do not. I said it may be a contributing factor to a complicated issue. Clearly there are cultural differences between HK and China.

I am not sure you have a firm grasp of English.

>Indeed British should pay reparations to Hong Kong like they owe it to other colonies

Hong Kong has a higher GDP per capita (46k USD source: World Bank) than either the UK (40k USD) or China (9k USD). So Hong Kong has been independent of the UK for 22 years and is richer than both the UK and China. Yet the current situation is 100% the fault of the British!? This screams victimhood.

From what I can tell, the people of Hong Kong are industrious, intelligent and hard working. The fact that inequality is so high is that the rich are richer than ever before. Are you telling me that the people of Hong Kong and China in the 22 years since independence had no say in the governing and running of the country?! That they made no choices in how the country was run? That they share no responsbility?

Often when things go wrong in former colonies, the people, rather than take responsbility and move forward in a constructive manner, they blame all their problems on the imperialists. Of course, the successes are of their own making but the mistakes and misfortune are laid at the feet of imperialists who have and will cause their country to suffer for forever more no matter what they do.

This is not a binary issues so I'm not saying countries like Britain are not at fault. The answer is far more nuanced and not black and white like you painted. In order for people to to make a change to their lives they need to take responsbility for their own actions.

As an example, Ireland has suffered under British rule for ~700 years but is now a successful, thriving, independent country.

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