Productivity and the Workweek (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#111

Post by diveloper » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

Lynbarry wrote: post #29

I reduced my time at work to 80% at the beginning of July. Every Friday is my day now. This week I had to switch it up so today is my day off. It's 1pm and I have already worked out, ran some errands that had been bugging me and am now reading this in one of my favorite diners which I for some reason almost never found the time to go to before. If you have the chance and it seems intriguing to you I encourage everyon…

I would do this in a heartbeat. Life is too short to believe that we seriously need to spend 5/7 days working for our entire adult life, no matter the type of labor or how much you enjoy it. If you can live comfortably with 20% less income, do it. Money ain't everything.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#112

Post by scottlocklin » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

Let's reduce economics to its barest rudiments: I'm pretty sure a worker could buy a house and support a family in 1950 on a single, average 40 hour a week salary; this was probably also true even as late as 1970. How many workers in the modern economy can buy a house and support a family on 1/4 of a 40 hour a week salary?

Those "productivity" numbers are obviously cooking the books bullshit. Either that or they're not measuring the right things. If the bare rudiments; food, housing, family creation cost the same or more, but we claim productivity has increased because ... I dunno we can sit on our fat asses and watch netflix instead of going to a movie theater: that's not measuring the right things.

Edit add: even assuming all the productivity gains have only benefitted, say, the top 10%, you'd see more people who could buy a house and make a family working 10 hours a week.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#113

Post by andrea_sdl » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

Whygul wrote: post #66

Expez wrote: post #60

I work 60% now. Instead of having two days off each week I've opted to work 4.5h each day. I can only focus intensely for about 4h each day on coding, so this works out well. It's always been this way for me and to get to 8 hours I'd go through the logs each day (important, but not taxing at all and something better left to an intern most of the time) and attend much more meetings (low intensity but 90% of them were…

Where do you work that gives you this option if you don't mind sharing a little more?

not OP too but I'd love to add an extra case: I work 3.5 days/week. I asked my boss after 14 years of work there if I could reduce my working time, given the fact that I think family time is more important. It went well and I suppose it's also thanks to the effort I put into my job daily.

Dunno if you're interested in the whole process, but I documented it on a blog post in case someone is after the same solution (https://givemethechills.com/why-did-i-start-working-part-tim... )

BTW I first got the idea right here on HN and the good thing is that I think, as developers, we have one of the best jobs that allows reducing our working time.

To improve it even further I'd love to do this kind of work entirely remote, thus givin me some extra time to spend with my family and removing the commute. That'd be the max :) I can't ask for this now because we're not a remote company and I know for sure that if the company is not fully remote I'm gonna fail badly (mostly because I'll be the only one doing it ).

In any case, after doing it for many years I can say that it's amazing and I love it

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#114

Post by perfunctory » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:01 PM UTC

Thus for the first time since his creation man will be faced with his real, his permanent problem - how to use his freedom from pressing economic cares, how to occupy the leisure, which science and compound interest will have won for him, to live wisely and agreeably and well.

The strenuous purposeful money-makers may carry all of us along with them into the lap of economic abundance. But it will be those peoples, who can keep alive, and cultivate into a fuller perfection, the art of life itself and do not sell themselves for the means of life, who will be able to enjoy the abundance when it comes.

Yet there is no country and no people, I think, who can look forward to the age of leisure and of abundance without a dread. For we have been trained too long to strive and not to enjoy.

-- John Maynard Keynes

http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#115

Post by rayvd » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

lerpoel wrote: post #11

quickthrower2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two questions Are many companies offering 4 day weeks? I’d guess yes. Can people afford to live off a 4 day week salary? I’d guess no in general.

Mandate 4 day weeks and see if salaries go down. I would guess not as companies still need to keep their workforce.

What about those of us who want to work more than four days?

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#116

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

barefoot wrote: post #90

UglyToad wrote: post #21

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive? From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll…

After you collapse on the sofa for a few minutes you then get back to work keeping yourself current, right? A reasonable measure of what it takes to stay current and relevant in this industry is twenty hours of dedicated reinvestment per week. Often times this reinvestment time is not afforded at work and as much as employers want to provide this as a benefit to developers, few offer the resources or time to allow de…

That is insanity. What could you possibly study four hours a day that would be worthwhile? That's just pumping in useless trivia information that will crowd out the useful development knowledge. Is it a web development thing? Framework-of-the-week psychosis? It just sounds like a recipe to get burnt to a crisp in a few years.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#117

Post by nabnob » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

tc7 wrote: post #24

firepoet wrote: post #15

The interesting thing is that wages have remained stagnant as productivity has increased dramatically. Which means that our labor has been valued less over time. What needs to happen is that the work week shortens while the minimum wage increases in kind. Top execs need to be comfortable making less, as they are the only ones profiting off these productivity increases.

Is this (wage stagnation) true for tech? It seems a special case. I wonder what the exec-pay/wage/productivity growth charts look like if we exclude tech. (Less disparity? More? Less productivity?)

I think this is why tech companies and venture capitalists are investing in bootcamps. Take the Lambda school for example - it got funding from Peter Thiel, Geoff Lewis of Bedrock Capital, Google Ventures, GGV Capital, Vy Capital, and Y Combinator.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2019/01/08/how-lambd...

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#118

Post by akavi » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

It's a little odd that the link doesn't mention that average working hours has in fact gone down over time in the United States, from 1989 hours over a year in 1950 to 1,757 hours in 2017[0]. That's a decrease of roughly 12%. Not as much as if all of productivity increases had gone into increasing leisure, but I'm not sure you'd expect that to have happened.

This trend seems fairly robust across countries and extending even further back in time. The average work week in the USA was 62 hours in 1870, and was 40.25 hours in 2000, a decline of 29% [1].

My suspicion is that this actually understates the increase in leisure time, as many household chores are presumably easier due to modern tech.

[0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEUSA065NRUG

[1]: https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#the-decline-of-work...

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#119

Post by JTbane » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #4

astonex wrote: post #2

Something like 30 hours a week, 4 days a week cant come soon enough. Right now I work 40-45, 5 days a week and it feels like all I do is work and chores.

Two questions Are many companies offering 4 day weeks? I’d guess yes. Can people afford to live off a 4 day week salary? I’d guess no in general.

>>Are many companies offering 4 day weeks? I’d guess yes.

Uh, probably not. Unless you mean part-time work. Or 10 hour days.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#120

Post by ale22 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

I think we need to limit the labor pool size to increase the bargaining position of employees. As far as US is concerned, that means, limiting immigration numbers.