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Somehow I Became Respectable

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Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#111

Post by mruts »

claudiawerner wrote: post #58
mruts wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar…

>But the way I see it there is only one dimension: oppression and tyranny on one end and free speech and individualism on the other. Other people don't see it that way, though, and in fact there are a few well-mounted defences from philosophers which define that "other" view. You're arguing for a roughly liberal (perhaps liberal egalitarian) point of view, but we shouldn't act as though this is the only way to concei…

You know, this is probably one of the best comments I've ever received that consists of counterpoints to my own. Kudos for your well reasoned points with links. I really wish the rest of hacker news was as gracious and thoughtful as you. And this is high praise coming from me!

I disagree with your interpretations about Rawls or Mills, but I very much appreciate your views.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#112

Post by asveikau »

ajxs wrote: post #110
asveikau wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish. When did I say that? I said he said in an interview that ideas of another time inspired that particular line. Not that he lived to see such a time or that 1971 was such a time. I wasn't too shocked at your previous reply even if I disagree, but now you are attributing insane c…

Perhaps I misread your initial comment, I posted it quite late. My apologies, I'm willing to delete my last post there for the sake of remaining civil if that helps.

No need to apologize or delete, friend. (We are outside the time limit for the latter anyhow.) These topics rile us up and I was also concerned I took it too far or rushed too much. So please accept my apologies too.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#113

Post by aksss »

slg wrote: post #106
rxhernandez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> isn't always fair to criticize that comedy since it is important to always judge art in the context in which it was originally created. I strongly disagree. I very much remember how my dad (an immigrant to the US) felt about it when he saw the Simpsons in the 90s; I remember how obvious the racism was when he pointed it out. Just because you were oblivious to how it made people feel doesn't mean it didn't make peop…

I did start that quote with "isn't always" meaning there are certain situations in which I agree with you. However, I think intent has to play a factor when judging comedy like this. It is not just intent to insult that is inappropriate, but knowledge that your comedy would insult and doing it anyway even if that isn't the primary intent. I think a lot of people were just ignorant of the repercussions of their jokes.…

It's also not as if Homer's speech was portraying him (or white people) in the best light. Apu was a recognizable character because of the setting and the accent. People do have accents. The audience watching the show in the 90's could relate to that specific convenience store experience. So Apu isn't the best representative of people from India/Pakistan. Homer, Barney, and the rest aren't the best representation of people from America. Comedy/satire is a thing. About the only character who represents with sterility is Dr. Hibbert.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#115

Post by tomlockwood »

romaaeterna wrote: post #100
tomlockwood wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know in Rome they didn't really have a rigid conception of heterosexuality? There were really only active, and passive partners in the sexual act. That was the distinction that mattered, and Hadrian was just seen as having "Greek taste". Also romans shat in public prolifically, as seen in the many pieces of graffiti warning people against doing it near shopfronts and people's homes. People shouldn't romantici…

Where did that comment come from? Greeks and Romans? Is it because of my username? I'm afraid that it was chosen because it's the name of a popular beginner's Latin textbook, not for misplaced Romanticism. However, I will say that reading the classics in their original Greek and Latin has added a lot of sanity to my life, and I would recommend it to anyone. Your own conception of Greek and Roman sexuality is highly r…

> Your own conception of Greek and Roman sexuality is highly romanticized, and would fall away with a course of general reading.

What do you think I'm romanticising? Can you mention a specific point? Also I didn't mention the actual aspects of Greek sexuality - just how Romans viewed Greeks. If you want to discuss Greek sexuality I'm happy to. You wanna discuss Phaedrus or The Republic, or the Sacred Band, or something else? Would be lovely to revisit postgrad.

Waters is indeed a very sane post-Enlightenment thinker, steeped in and derived from the sanity of the civilisation he is a product of.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#116

Post by slg »

aksss wrote: post #113
slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did start that quote with "isn't always" meaning there are certain situations in which I agree with you. However, I think intent has to play a factor when judging comedy like this. It is not just intent to insult that is inappropriate, but knowledge that your comedy would insult and doing it anyway even if that isn't the primary intent. I think a lot of people were just ignorant of the repercussions of their jokes.…

It's also not as if Homer's speech was portraying him (or white people) in the best light. Apu was a recognizable character because of the setting and the accent. People do have accents. The audience watching the show in the 90's could relate to that specific convenience store experience. So Apu isn't the best representative of people from India/Pakistan. Homer, Barney, and the rest aren't the best representation of…

I would push back on that a little. There are different responsibilities when you only have one instance of a character of a certain demographic verses a multitude of characters. For example, no one would complain if one of the East Asian characters on Fresh Off The Boat was a stereotype (I don't watch the show, so I'm not sure if there is one) because the cast is full of East Asian people are therefore the show is in no way implying that they all fit that stereotype. Apu was the most prominent and sometimes the only South Asian face on television for years and therefore there is extra pressure not to make that character a stereotype. There are so many white people on TV that presenting some in a bad light doesn't lead to stereotyping.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#117

Post by tictoc »

joncrane wrote: post #40
pwinnski wrote: post #2

I also don't understand how John Waters came to be seen as respectable, but I suppose it might help some people to hear that a lack of respectability, or even acceptance, is not always permanent. Sometimes it is, but not always.

Being respectable means finding a kernel of truth (that isn't necessarily widely known) and working diligently to clear the way for it to come out. Hard work and devotion to a cause is, in itself, respectable. Having the courage to stick with something even when it was unpopular is respectable. Heck even Terry A. Davis, late creator of TempleOS, gets some grudging respect on here.

Wow. Didn't know Terry Davis died. Has anyone used TempleOS? What is it like?

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#118

Post by romaaeterna »

tomlockwood wrote: post #115
romaaeterna wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did that comment come from? Greeks and Romans? Is it because of my username? I'm afraid that it was chosen because it's the name of a popular beginner's Latin textbook, not for misplaced Romanticism. However, I will say that reading the classics in their original Greek and Latin has added a lot of sanity to my life, and I would recommend it to anyone. Your own conception of Greek and Roman sexuality is highly r…

> Your own conception of Greek and Roman sexuality is highly romanticized, and would fall away with a course of general reading. What do you think I'm romanticising? Can you mention a specific point? Also I didn't mention the actual aspects of Greek sexuality - just how Romans viewed Greeks. If you want to discuss Greek sexuality I'm happy to. You wanna discuss Phaedrus or The Republic, or the Sacred Band, or somethi…

> You wanna discuss Phaedrus or The Republic, or the Sacred Band, or something else?

Sure. How much Plato have you read in Greek? What do you think, for example, he means by ὑπηρετεῖν when applied to χαρισάμενα παιδικά?

> Waters is indeed...steeped in and derived from...

This makes me suspect what the answer to "How much Plato have you read in Greek?" was, and exactly how much that postgrad degree was worth.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#119

Post by dragonwriter »

krapp wrote: post #94
simiones wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think Blazing Saddles couldn't be made today, when Django was successful?

Blazing Saddles was a comedy. Django is acceptable because it's a drama, but Mel Brooks' style of humor is no longer socially acceptable. We can take issues like race and anti-semitism deadly seriously, but we aren't allowed to laugh about them anymore. Which is unfortunate because bigots often take strength from projecting an air of dignity and respectability in an attempt to legitimize themselves in the public squa…

> Blazing Saddles was a comedy. Django is acceptable because it's a drama

That's not at all true; except perhaps for extremely historically-grounded drama (which Django is not), drama tends to get less license than comedy.

> but Mel Brooks' style of humor is no longer socially acceptable

Mel Brooks style of humor was never “socially acceptable”, it’s was always transgressive. It's probably not as commercially acceptable in the mainstream film industry as it once was, but that's more because transgressive video entertainment has other outlets and the mainstream film industry is a more mature and more narrowly-focussed industry than it once was.

> We can take issues like race and anti-semitism deadly seriously, but we aren't allowed to laugh about them anymore.

My experience of currently successful (both live and distributed on major video platforms) stand up and other comedy suggests that, yes, we are very much still allowed to laugh at those things. The particular currently successful forms may not look exactly like Blazing Saddles, but while the latter isn't stale, it's also very firmly grounded in the time it was produced (which seems generally true of Brooks’ comedies).

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#120

Post by tomlockwood »

romaaeterna wrote: post #118
tomlockwood wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your own conception of Greek and Roman sexuality is highly romanticized, and would fall away with a course of general reading. What do you think I'm romanticising? Can you mention a specific point? Also I didn't mention the actual aspects of Greek sexuality - just how Romans viewed Greeks. If you want to discuss Greek sexuality I'm happy to. You wanna discuss Phaedrus or The Republic, or the Sacred Band, or somethi…

> You wanna discuss Phaedrus or The Republic, or the Sacred Band, or something else? Sure. How much Plato have you read in Greek? What do you think, for example, he means by ὑπηρετεῖν when applied to χαρισάμενα παιδικά? > Waters is indeed...steeped in and derived from... This makes me suspect what the answer to "How much Plato have you read in Greek?" was, and exactly how much that postgrad degree was worth.

So you can't say what I'm romanticising. Understood.
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